4468's chime whistle

[60800]

In videos and recordings, 4468's chime whistle has always had a very distinctive, harsh pitch, a lot higher than that of the other preserved A4's. Was the whistle slightly different to that on the others, or just tuned differently?

[Tom F]

Being a classically trained musician, I can tell you the actual pitch (notes) are the same, but I agree 4468s whistle has a harsher tone to it in all recordings I've heard.
No idea why, but as the whistles were made by hand then it's understandable there are differences.

The footage of 60007, 60009, 60017 in steam outside the NRM from the 70th anniversary is very interesting as all 3 whistles sound slightly different.

[v3man]

According to RCTS 2A the original whistles were imported from the USA but during the war most A4s lost their chime whistles which it was thought could have been confused with air raid sirens. There were a few exceptions and the removed chime whistles were not saved. After the war due to import restrictions new replacement whistles had to be made under licence in the UK and these were slightly different in tone. Whereas the original USA ones blew the chord C,F and A flat (2nd inversion of F minor) the British ones were half a tone higher (2nd inversion of Fsharp minor).

So there were differences but 2A does not record which A4s ended up with which whistles. In addition 4489 carried a five note Canadian Pacific whistle from 1937 until 1949 when it reverted to a standard whistle (but which type?) and the Canadian whistle was bought by the Festiniog Railway from where it was subsequently stolen in 1963, as was the New Zealand Railways whistle which had been on 4492 from 1939 until withdrawal. 4492 had previously carried a South African Railways whistle from new until 1939.

It would be interesting to hear recording of all the various types!

[jukebox]

Not forgetting 60012 which, I understood, lost her Chime Whistle in 1960 in exchange for a WAGR five(?) tone whistle, presented by Captain Howey of Romney,Hythe & Dymchurch Railway fame... and that A4 chime is now carried by Dr Syn (or, according to some sources, Hurricane...)?

Also of note: Wasn't the use of the chime started by Howey, importing a pair from North America, who then presented an original Crosby chime whistle to Gresley, after SNG expressed his approval of same, that he subsequently installed on 2001,

[baxterwood]

I know it is a bit late now from the original post but perhaps I can clarify some details on the subject.

It is correct that the first chime whistle used was the one from Howey presented to Gresley which he fitted to 2001, this was one of two such whistles that Howey had purchased from Canada (both U S Crosby made types) I am led to believe that the one from 2001 is still extant somewhere and the other is still in use to day on the RHDR locomotive 'Winston Churchill' both have built in valves in the base casting.

These original Crosby whistles, as fitted to the A4's before WW2 but without the valve arrangement, have longer note tubes than the later, post war, LNER/BR made examples and deliver a deeper note. To confirm this check youtube and listen to the note of the chime whistle on 'Winston Churchill' or the example that 'Tornado' ran with in late 2010 at;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M41asnKimlQ
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLFVDTsPv4s
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbIpQgW2pew

This is what the A4's warning device would have sounded liker pre WW2.

Hope it might help,
Peter,

[AdamOrmorod4468]

What a difference a semitone makes! To be honest I prefer the ones they have now, the sound of the original whistles feels far too American, heavy and... for lack of a better way of putting it, sad (even though both are 2nd inversion minor chords). I much prefer Tornado's usual whistles, which seem to match her appearance well, the same goes for the A4s I suppose as the higher pitch conveys a greater sense of speed, and a sense of lightness as if the locomotive is light on her feet. Now I've heard it I feel a little disappointed, perhaps the change in tuning was intentional? Either way, I hope that the sound fits with the new P2, perhaps I'm just a bit attached to the 'usual' sound.

[baxterwood]

I can see where you are coming from we do all seem to have got used to the later higher toned whistle.

The one that is heard on Tornado is my own Crosby example and, having measured both internally and externally, is the same dimensions and has the same note tube lengths as the whistle the RHDR have on 'Winston Churchill' thereby proving the original tone, furthermore and just as an aside they were known as 'Tri-tone whistles' not 'chime whistles'.

If you are a musician, which I am not, what is the key of the earlier whistle?

Peter

[AdamOrmorod4468]

The older whistles are tuned to a chord of F minor 2nd inversion (F, C and Ab), the newer ones are a semitone higher at F# minor 2nd inversion (F#, C# and A natural) so if you imagine it being played on a piano, all on the notes move one to the right including the black notes. It doesn't have a key as such, one chord on its own isn't enough for there to be one. I used to think the claim that they sounded like air raid sirens was ridiculous, but now I've heard it I can actually see (or hear) exactly what they meant.

[skipness]

Am I correct that Ralph Wedgewood's chime whistle was transferred (to a York station pilot) after the Baedecker raid on York?

[neilgow]

Just as aside to this conversation, the whistle from 60026 Miles Beevor ended up on display in a window of the 1980's Inverness Bus Station paper shop.

The owner lent it to the Strathspey Railway for two years. It was fitted to their Austerity J94 0-6-0ST No 60. To say it made a statement in the Highlands was no exaggeration. Mind you it did pull in the paying public of a certain age.

Rgds

NG.

[baxterwood]

The later LNER, and BR, whistles from my own research are both identical and, for want of a better word, poor by comparison with the finer examples from the U.S.
Check to images I have put on here, all are 4 inch diameter versions, one in nickel plate of the type with valve that Howey gave to Gresley which is the same model as used on 'Winston Churchill'. The second image depicts my own Crosby compared with a BR made example from 'Britannia' 70053.
The dissimilar lighter weight base between the two is quite clearly shown and can be, just about, seen on good pre war photographs of the early A4's.

[FelixM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M41asnKimlQ
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLFVDTsPv4s
or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbIpQgW2pew

Please excuse me, but I am hearing a diminished chord here:
C#, E and G in the first video,
B, D and F in the second and
C, D# and F# the first time, C#, E and G the second time, Bb, C# and E the third time in the third video.

The Doppler effect and the amount of "pull" on the whistle lever by the loco driver should be responsible for the different sounds. The latter shows that one should be careful when determining the tones of a whistle to what it applies. Furthermore I cannot find any evidence for the F minor oder F# minor chords mentioned in earlier posts.

Kind regards
Felix

[baxterwood]

Hi Felix,

I am not a musician by any means but I would have thought that, since all those you listened to, were all the same Crosby Chime whistle therefore there has to be other factors in the different chords. Some of these you have mentioned, pull on whistle valve, doppler effect etc.
Perhaps there are others too, whistle location behind smoke deflector, locomotive steam pressure, steam volume and differing location and environments?

Peter

[AndyG]

One thing to be aware of is that the source material may not be being shown at the same speed it was shot at.

Cinema film used to be shot at 24 frames per second but for UK TV it runs at 25 fps to fit in with the TV frame rate resulting in all frequencies being increased slightly.

Amateur film shot on 8 or 16mm may also have had to be tweaked to fit the TV frame rate again resulting in pitch changes.

Andy

[Bracken]

A big thank you to Ade the Pianist.

Whilst searching for confirmation of the notes created by the ‘typical’ A4 chime, I see that the modern web suggests perhaps a dozen different answers.

Back in 1968, I was obliged to find the answer in a book. Although the identity of that precious reference is long-forgotten, I had unwittingly recorded the answer myself (perhaps confirmed by ear from 33.3 rpm vinyl recordings, accounting for Doppler effects, boiler pressure, rheumatic wrists of the driver, etc.).

In those days, just after steam had effectively vanished from BR metals, the loss of those sights and sounds had huge significance for me. As a result, I wrote a short, reflective piece of music, invoking the distant sound of the A4 chime. There, in this music, still sits today the second inversion of the F minor triad: C, F and A flat. It is a truly haunting sound, even if a post-war version up a semi-tone based on C# might seem more urgent. (I find the hooters of the Bulleid pacifics are also evocative but altogether more cheerful).

There might be further explanations for the reported variations in the chime. A steam whistle may be likened to an exotic brass spray nozzle. Any hydraulic nozzle that is used repeatedly will be subject to wear, especially if made from softer brass. The reverberation in a nozzle that whistles at 250 psi, 100°C, and includes flakes of lime-scale from the boiler, is likely to suffer wear. Such small changes in the internal dimensions are bound to distort the intended harmonics. Given the extremely exposed mounting of the A4 chime, further wear might also result from airborne dust, smuts, grit and cinders thrown-up by passing trains travelling at speed in the opposite direction.

Another factor affecting the perceived timbre may concern which of the three notes is more evident to the ear – and this refers to the exact mounting and orientation (rotation) of the whistle on the loco. It is feasible that the mounting on 4468 resulted in an unusual orientation. Distortions may also result if the heavy whistle had been dropped from a height, thrown about, or simply clouted with a hammer.