The LNER Encyclopedia

Why oh why do I have to crush that statement regularly???

The tender that was behind No 1 for more than 100 years, was not and never was a Sturrock tender in anyway..

NO Sturrock tender had inside springs, Groves GNR loco book states quite clearly that the tender was in fact
a combination of two separate types of Stirling types. A Good underframe, and then adapted to take a
well tank and Passenger upper tank.

My own research is quite clear that the tender was and remains a Stirling Hybrid. Malcolm made a mistake in
ascribing a drawing of R8 to Sturrock, but in fact he also wrongly figured the water capacity too.
Historically, GNR tenders were Outside springs Cuubitt, Bury, Sturrock. Inside springs Stirling.
Outside springs Ivatt and Gresley.
Paul

Pebbles wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 10:55 am If this is the tender that has been long associated with the preserved Stirling Single, then it is most likely a Sturrock tender.

No, it is the replacement tender:

I will be very naughty! I had been under the impression that we were looking to help Manna. The discussion appears to have drifted as none of the photos show a self trimming tender with an unequal wheelbase. Now that's out of the way.
Hopefully Paul you meant to include some Stirling tenders as having outside frame mounted springs.
Turning to the famous, or is it infamous tender, behind the Stirling Single. When it was originally preserved. Malcolm believed this to be a hybrid of some kind, indeed you may want to correct me Paul, but I believed that it may have been a goods engine tender. So frames aside did it have a Sturrock style to the front of the tender? if such a style ever existed. From very many years ago at an expoEM Malcolm found the whole issue very confusing.
Finally thanks Mike for the photos and correcting me.

By the way I forgot to mention this, but Isinglass Drawing 353 is of a GNR cab K3 with a self trimming GNR tender.

G'Day Gents

Reguardless of my original query, it's turning into a fascinating discussion, I to always thought No1 was hooked up to a 'Sturrock' tender after it had lost it's large Stirling tender (To useful to be left on a preserved loco) So it's interesting to find out it's a mongrel Stirling tender, but still it's a unusual survivor.

manna

OOPs Pebbles you are right, I did forget the post tender R14 outside spring Stirling tenders.

I agree that Malcolm got his nickers in a twist about the provenance of the R8 tender. He missed the
fact that the drawing was done around the time that Sturrock had informed the board that he was
leaving early, and Stirling had been appointed as interim Chief Engineer and was still in charge
of the drawing office. There are numerous photos, well at least 2, that show stripped Sturrock tenders
most of which were converted to brake vans, and the springs above the footplate were not removed.
I am now and always have since I started properly studying the tender evolution, of the opinion
that Doncaster would not have wasted money moving springs from above the footplate to below it.
I have studied the old tender a number of times since 2003, and after looking at other railway's above footplate
springs, ie Midland, I know that the plated area above the springs does not show that upper springs were
ever fitted.

It is indeed true that the underframe was from a goods tender, I did mention that above. The thing we do not
know is when the well of the water tank was fitted, I am minded to consider that happened in 1923, but
have no evidence. The only thing is that when No 1 was first preserved with a tender for display, it did not
have to move. It's only later for Shildon in 1925 that it needed to move, and I do not believe a new well would have been made in 1938.

Finally for all to remember No 1 had a relatively small tender for much of its time until 1905, Later it would have
had an R14 or 15, but I am not sure it ever had an R19 or 20.

Paul

G'Day Gents

Whilst trawling through some of my own pictures, (gleaned off the internet) I came across this one, a picture of Hornsey steam shed, post 1929, probably taken from the coal tower, it gives us a good view of the tender tops of a couple of O2's a couple of Stirling tank engines, domeless to boot, what appears to be a J3 and a K2.

manna

PS If anyone would like the unedited version, let me know.