The LNER Encyclopedia

As most of you know per George Dow's history of the GCR, in 1846 the Huddersfield & Manchester Railway seemed likely to go to MS&LR until the last minute. The next year, the LNWR would acquire it, along with its companion scheme, the Leeds, Dewsbury & Manchester Railway. I've been casting about for Great Central modelling ideas for some time, and recently returned to this one. My idea is to model what the line between Manchester London Road and Leeds Central might have looked like under the GCR between 1905 and 1914.

I'm still looking into what engines and traffic were common on the line, but I should think it would make for a good deal of operating interest. One of my main interests in the pre-Grouping era is the diversity of companies, and this line allows me to include five (six if you have the Hull & Barnsley build its extension to Huddersfield and Halifax).

I expect the relationship the LNWR enjoyed with the NER at Leeds will probably be replicated, albeit with the GCR taking the place of the former.

Due to the GCR and GNR's better relations, I'd expect them to probably have junctions at Dewsbury and Batley.

Maybe the H&BR could be talked into sharing the GCR's Huddersfield station instead of building their own?

G'day Gents

Wasn't there talk of an amalgamation of the GC, GN & GE, once upon a time ??

manna

Yes, there was talk of it, but not until after WWI I think. Then the Grouping came along...

If I was travelling from London to Leeds between 1905-1914 my first choice would be to travel via the GNR route from Kings Cross and my second choice would be via the Midland route from St Pancras although I suppose if it was possible to go directly from Marylebone to Leeds via the GCR I would try it to see what it was like?.

manna wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 am G'day Gents

Wasn't there talk of an amalgamation of the GC, GN & GE, once upon a time ??

manna

1909 I think. Didn't get through Parliament.

How does the MS&LR/GCR getting the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line affect the railway politics of the Victorian era?

I think the NER will still want a junction with it very much, as it's still the most direct line for them to Manchester and Liverpool. The L&YR used the line as far as Huddersfield before getting on the Huddersfield and Sheffield Junction for their Sheffield trains. The Midland will probably still be hostile. The GNR was usually friendly with the GCR, so I think they'd work with them here. Perhaps a joint GNR/GCR goods station in Leeds?

GWRSwindon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:51 am How does the MS&LR/GCR getting the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line affect the railway politics of the Victorian era?...

Let's hypothesise that this proved to be a fatal overstretch that led to the failure of the MS&LR, and it being (rationally) acquired and operated jointly by the LNWR and NER. Not a chance for the world domination ambitions of Edward Watkin there, so he goes after opportunities elsewhere*; no Gorton works, no London extension and Marylebone.

*Perhaps Watkin gets the Channel tunnel built rather earlier? Direct services between UK and mainland Europe in C19th, take that idea out for a spin...

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:23 am If I was travelling from London to Leeds between 1905-1914 my first choice would be to travel via the GNR route from Kings Cross and my second choice would be via the Midland route from St Pancras although I suppose if it was possible to go directly from Marylebone to Leeds via the GCR I would try it to see what it was like?.

It would certainly be interesting if the GCR had managed to extend their main line from Sheffield to reach Leeds directly, however, I'm suggesting a somewhat different idea. This assumes the Huddersfield & Manchester had indeed gone to the MS&LR as was expected, eventually leading to a Great Central line between Manchester and Leeds, instead of the LNWR.

A pity the Class 9Q 4-6-0s didn't show up until 1921. With their hill-climbing abilities, they'd make a good fit for the Manchester-Leeds line.

Hatfield Shed wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:53 pm

GWRSwindon wrote: ↑Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:51 am How does the MS&LR/GCR getting the Manchester-Huddersfield-Leeds line affect the railway politics of the Victorian era?...

Let's hypothesise that this proved to be a fatal overstretch that led to the failure of the MS&LR, and it being (rationally) acquired and operated jointly by the LNWR and NER. Not a chance for the world domination ambitions of Edward Watkin there, so he goes after opportunities elsewhere*; no Gorton works, no London extension and Marylebone.

*Perhaps Watkin gets the Channel tunnel built rather earlier? Direct services between UK and mainland Europe in C19th, take that idea out for a spin...

That's certainly a fascinating idea, I imagine Watkin may have remained with the LNWR, or focused solely on his Canadian interests.

I doubt I'll change history so massively, however. I'll most likely ignore the butterfly effect, with the MS&LR still becoming the GCR, the only difference being the ownership of the Huddersfield line.

manna wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 4:10 am G'day Gents

Wasn't there talk of an amalgamation of the GC, GN & GE, once upon a time ??

manna

The original plan for the Grouping published in 1920 entailed seven groups, one of them being the GC, GN and GE. The article on this website on the Grouping, "Sixes and Sevens", gives more details. I don't know whether there were any earlier amalgamation plans generated by the companies themselves.

Kudu

Working out how the Great Northern's West Riding lines will be altered by a MSLR/GCR Huddersfield line is proving somewhat tricky. If I remember correctly, Watkin had wanted to build at least some them as joint MSLR/GNR lines, but evidently this never came to be.

However, with the MSLR at Huddersfield, the GNR can gain access to that city with little trouble. The line between Huddersfield and Halifax may actually be built here, and the Dewsbury Loop may not even need to be built, if they can get there via the MSLR.

Mickey wrote: ↑Sat Feb 13, 2021 8:23 am If I was travelling from London to Leeds between 1905-1914 my first choice would be to travel via the GNR route from Kings Cross and my second choice would be via the Midland route from St Pancras although I suppose if it was possible to go directly from Marylebone to Leeds via the GCR I would try it to see what it was like?.

I suspect the Marylebone - Leeds trains would have used the GCML as far as Penistone, then the Huddersfield & Sheffield Joint to Huddersfield, then to Leeds, using either the original main line via Heaton Lodge and Mirfield, or the Leeds New Line.