Other long gone GN signalboxes

[StevieG]

" .... i particularly remember from my visit to the box in early 1973 was ..... the S&T department had mounted about 10(?) wooden cased block bells high up along the back wall of the box with long chains attached to each individual bell so that when the block bell was rung by another box the signalman could see which one it was with the chain 'dancing around' for several seconds all the 'pegging' block instruments & tappers were mounted on a normal block shelf above the lever frame. .... "

There were twelve bells in the box in all in about 1969 (the other two were the interlocking bells to Ferme Park South Down and Harringay Up Goods for the jointly bolted/worked crossovers, Down Slow 2 - Down Goods, and Up Goods 1 - Up Slow. I can't recall whether they were also up above the windows on the back wall.

Yes there was certainly an array of various chains and strings (about 1 foot? long) hanging from the bell hammer stems for the reason you mention [and IIRC, an unrivalled (in this area), astonishing variety of (exposed) bell/dome types] ; [ These bells were all mounted so that their bell hammers moved in a horizontal plane, apparently to impart maximum possible movement to the hanging strings, chains etc.].
The block instruments were all of the Tyers 'black box' type, with in-built bell key/'tapper' (used here for the bell circuits of the block sections in rear), and there would certainly have been scope for confusion if the usual 'on back of the casing' bell on each had here been used for the section in rear, as (IMHO) the variety of tones found amongst them was more limited compared with those of normal GN types of bell.
The bell keys for the advance section bell circuits were of the small wooden plinth-mounted, fully-exposed type, resembling a simple Morse sending key, as used in several boxes on the route where shelf space was at a premium; (e.g. Hornsey No.1) : Here at Harringay West ('Passenger') box the shortage of block shelf space over the 40-lever frame was partly owing to the space taken by the seemingly numerous lamp repeating indicator/bell/switch units.

Do you also remember Mickey, because the signals fitted with lamp repeating had it done by means of the combined arm & lamp repeating circuit method, that while the arm repeater of any of them was showing "WRONG" (i.e., neither "ON" or "OFF"), the 'lamp out' trembler bell would ring continuously?
This meant that the box was slightly less noisy if the levers of those signals so-equipped were not thrown/released back in the frame more quickly than necessary behind passing trains, because, as may be expected, the more rapidly that each of these signal arms dropped back to horizontal, the more times it bounced until settling in the ON position, and so then its bell would ring during every bounce of the arm.

" .... The other thing i noticed was 'alittle trick' Norman showed me with regards to the levers on the Up slow line?. If Norman closed the catch handles on the Up slow line Inner distant signal lever and the Up slow line home signal lever [etc.] .... when Norman put the Up slow line outter distant signal lever fully back in the frame suddenly the Up slow line inner distant signal lever would first fly fully back in the frame followed by the Up slow line home signal lever as well as the Up slow line starting signal lever it basically saved the signalman putting each individual signal lever back in the frame one by one, a neat little trick i remember thinking. "

I was shown something similar at New Southgate.
There, there was a shunt move possible from the 'station yard' (just south of the box), straight onto, and back along, the Up Goods in the Down direction, then crossing to the Up Reception at the north end of the station via No.56 points, and continuing north towards the 'Top Yard' (between Cemetery box and N.Southgate). This involved four disc shunting signals (27, 35, 46 and 55, IIRC), with each being released to be pulled by the one next ahead being cleared first.
Like you say, in this case, once 27 was fully Reverse, if the catch handles of the other three were then closed, leaving their levers held Reverse only by the lever (inter)locking, then putting 27 back to Normal allowed the weight/tensions of the other three to pull their levers quickly back to Normal in sequence, untouched by human hand.
In my opinion, more a novelty than being of much practical use, and creating risk of premature or accidental initiation if done while there was a real movement in progress. (But still impressive to visitors)

[StevieG]

" I just discovered (for me?) a unknown G.N.R. s/box that was called Harringay Down (box) .... "

Going back several posts Mickey, as this box was a new one for you, were you also aware of other similar, less well known, real 'oldies', like Caledonian Down, Holloway Station Down, Holloway Carriage Sidings, Hornsey No.3 (which was not 'Up Goods'), (New)Barnet No.2 (not either the later South or North) ? -
- [ Not that I know a great deal about them ].

[9001 St Paddy]

" I just discovered (for me?) a unknown G.N.R. s/box that was called Harringay Down (box) .... "

Going back several posts Mickey, as this box was a new one for you, were you also aware of other similar, less well known, real 'oldies', like Caledonian Down, Holloway Station Down, Holloway Carriage Sidings, Hornsey No.3 (which was not 'Up Goods'), (New)Barnet No.2 (not either the later South or North) ? -
- [ Not that I know a great deal about them ].

Only through various books Stevie like the Michael Vanns book of Great Norhern Railway Signalling and a few other publications. As previously posted about 6-9 months ago i only came across Hornsey No.3 box that i never even knew existed which was apparently located at the north end of Hornsey station and only signalled the Down lines (of course) also i've seen an old photograph in a book of Holloway South that appears to be located on the south end of Holloway Station, it isn't Holloway South Up because it's to near the Up fast line on the station platform to be the Holloway South Up that everyone remembers.

[9001 St Paddy]

With regards to my 2 visits to Harringay (Passenger) box in Feb/Mar of 1973 i can't remember the finer details of the actual interior of the box other than those 12 block bells hanging up in a line along the top back of the box with there chains hanging from the individual bells and the 'little trick' with putting the Up slow line signals back as previously posted although i do remember remarking to Norman Greenwood that i had never seen a train being 'turned in' off the Down fast line onto the Down slow No.1 line at Harringay so Norman said "We'll put that right we'll turn the next train in off the fast and send him down the slow No.1" ????. Anyway as luck would have it it was a 3-1 'parly' worked by a Rolls Royce set that Norman duly turned in off the Down fast line and sent down the slow No.1 line towards Hornsey No.1 ha ha ha ha ha...

Another thing i remember from Harringay was that the Up fast line starting signal or starter on a tall post which also carried Finsbury Park 6 Up fast line inner distant signal beneath it and being part of a gantry heading towards Finsbury Park 6 was a real 'heavy pull' considering it wasn't to far away from the box plus it never gave a 'good off' any photographs showing that signal in the off position on the gantry always shows that arm as being at about a 35 degree angle rather than a 45 degree angle it never showed a good off?, Norman said that the signal wire ran from the box and then doubled back on it's self for some distance making it a heavy pull and after he let me have ago pulling it off i could see what he meant.

[StevieG]

Another thing i remember from Harringay was that the Up fast line starting signal or starter on a tall post which also carried Finsbury Park 6 Up fast line inner distant signal beneath it and being part of a gantry heading towards Finsbury Park 6 was a real 'heavy pull' considering it wasn't to far away from the box plus it never gave a 'good off' any photographs showing that signal in the off position on the gantry always shows that arm as being at about a 35 degree angle rather than a 45 degree angle it never showed a good off?, Norman said that the signal wire ran from the box and then doubled back on it's self for some distance making it a heavy pull and after he let me have ago pulling it off i could see what he meant. .... "

That would've been because of the Backslotting for No.6 Box's No.55 Up Fast mechanical Outer Distant on the Harringay No.23 Home signal post : As well as the usual two weight bars-plus-the 'drop-off' slot in that post's slotting assembly, there had to be a third weight bar (the 'backslot'), worked by the No.22 Starting signal wire arrangements, to ensure that No.6's Outer Distant stayed at Caution if Harringay's 22 Starter was still at Danger while his Home was at clear, and No.6 Box's UF signal levers had all been pulled including for both of his Distants.
In fact the mechanics of it all were probably that the backslot on 23, and 22 signal's weight bar were connected with each other by an 'endless wire' running between them, and that was pulled tight (raising both of them and 22 signal arm) by the pulling of lever 22, by the means of some sort of tensioning wheel assembly possibly about halfway between the two signals : That way, a wire break anywhere in these wires dropped both weight bars back to their normal 'on' position, avoiding the 'wrong side failure' irregular indication sequence, possible with some other sorts of connection arrangement, of the backslot under 23 staying up if a break had occurred which dropped 22 back to Danger.

" .... Also i amended my previous post to included non-pegging as well as pegging block instruments being included on the block shelf. "

Well, okay, but not sure I follow, as I feel sure that the passenger lines' had Tyers 'black box' Block instruments of the usual two-dial type, so the 'pegging' and 'non-pegging' Block indicators for each line were one above the other in the same instrument.

[9001 St Paddy]

I remember you posting about 5 years ago Stevie with regards to the 'slotting arrangements' between those signals on the Up fast line at Harringay with special regards to Harringay's Up fast line home signal and the Up fast line starting signal both had Finsbury Park 6 outter & inner distant signals on there respective posts and that was the reason why the Up fast line starting signal was a 'heavy pull' out of the frame.

With regards to the pegging & non-pegging block instruments 'i just assumed' that was the set up on the block shelf my visit was back in 1973 and i had forgotten some of the finer details of the interior of the box.

[StevieG]

What no doubt also took up a lot of the Harringay Block shelf space was one of the typical large 'boxy' Block Switches, (in fact I'm not even sure now about this point, but I'd be surprised if a box as busy as this one wasn't able to switch-out on the Down and Up lines separately, and so there were probably two block switches).

[9001 St Paddy]

Now that you mention it Stevie about the box maybe could either switch in or out on either the Up or Down lines rings a vague bell i believe i remember hearing something about that way back then??.

Wasn't Harringay (Passenger) a porter/signalman's job at onetime and only switched in on the Up lines during the morning peak and only switched in on the Down lines during the evening peak??.

[StevieG]

Now that you mention it Stevie about the box maybe could either switch in or out on either the Up or Down lines rings a vague bell i believe i remember hearing something about that way back then??.

Wasn't Harringay (Passenger) a porter/signalman's job at onetime and only switched in on the Up lines during the morning peak and only switched in on the Down lines during the evening peak??.


Mickey

Honestly can't be of much help there.
Other than having heard during the late '60s that it had in some way and/or at some past times, previously been a porter/signalman duty, I don't know any other details.

[9001 St Paddy]

Anyway Harringay (Passenger) was a busy box right up to the end in August 1973 that place would have kept a signalman fairly fit with all that constant lever pulling and working on the block all shift long i do remember that a west indian bloke use to be the only regular signalman at the box during the final years the box was open his surname i recall was called Sergeant and i guess John 'the signalman' would probably remember him when he was doing the tele lads job at Finsbury Park 6 in the early 1970s.

[9001 St Paddy]

Stevie you knew New Southgate box quite well from your past references to the box in some of your posts i remember riding on several Up local passenger trains and being 'turned out' off the Up slow to Up fast line through that lead that was situated just yards beyond the box in the Up slow line a few times before that lead was taken out it must have been around 1968 or early 1969 when it was removed and plain lined?

New Southgate's Up slow line semaphore starting signal on the straight medium size metal tubular post (standing opposite the Up fast line colour light starting signal) with Wood Green Up box No.2s Up slow line semaphore distant signal beneath it i don't believe i ever really saw that distant signal pulled off that i can remember although thinking about it again there mite have been atleast one occasion it may have been pulled off because i believe i have a vague memory of a oil train running up the slow line and that distant signal was showing off i think?.

Also i just about remember the north diamond crossover and slips starting in the Down slow line and going right across to the Up Goods line via the Down fast, Up fast & Up slow lines under the tall bridge just north of the station which when a train went over that crossing it made a 'hell of a noise' combined with the sound of the echo bouncing off the brickwork of the tall bridge as well anyway i guess from memory that crossing was abolished around 1968 when it was all plain lined.

New Southgate box?. Not a bad looking box as s/boxes go although very slightly a bit on the low side but not to much to worry about plus i liked the B.R. paint job circa 1970-73 but a bit on the narrow side inside the box with not to much room to play with between a reversed lever in the frame and the back wall of the box.

[StevieG]

Yes, good stuff Mickey : Much liked that box.
Well I never saw Wood Green 2 Box's Up Slow Distant 'Off' either, though I was never there for very lengthy periods.
Actually it was that box's Outer Distant : Do you remember that when driving through the Up Slow bore of Wood Green Tunnel, when not too far before emerging at the WG end, you used to see a small yellow light on the left-hand wall? - It was actually a 'workable' yellow-faced shunt-type disc signal, but instead used there as WG2 Inner Distant (Lever 10 I think, with the Outer being No.11).

I'm really not sure about the dates of points' removals at Southgate, though somewhere I've a depressing slide of a crane replacing the Down Fast/UF slips of the long 'Through crossover Road' with an ordinary simple DF/UF crossover [which then remained for one or two more years], taken through a broken pane of the station footbridge's windows.

The Up side end of the 'Through Road' actually went one step further than you mention, with one more slip/points beyond the Up Goods, to the "Up Siding", [ which was the continuation from the Up Reception from Cemetery, and ran through the station outside the Up Goods, serving the loading dock along the way before continuing south into the 'station yard' but where there was also 37 crossover back to the UG].
Along with its disc signals, the Through Road as a whole accounted for levers 44 - 54.

As to the Up Slow / UF 'turnout' crossover, in '67 this was No.21, one of the only two sets of points in the (GN) London area that were still 'Economicals' [points and facing point lock worked by the same lever. ( The other was the No.6 DS/DF at Cemetery which, not being track-circuited, had a Lock Bar working with the FPL as well.)] ].
Then later, but lasting for quite a while before abolition, those functions at Southgate were made more conventional by being split onto two levers : - the points were put onto Spare lever 20*, with 21 re-used for only the FPL, but in common with what must then have become a national practice, the FPL was arranged so that the plunger locked the points when 21 was Reverse; inconsistent with others in this box, and, by then having become the first and only lever there to usually stand out of the frame, suddenly made the frame look 'untidy' and was slightly obstructive to walking back and forth.

* - (had once been the UF mech. Outer Distant under Cemetery's Home, when C used to have an UF Starter with 19 the Inner Dist. under it.)

[9001 St Paddy]

1.Now that you mention it Stevie i believe i do recall that small yellow light in the Up slow line single bore tunnel at Wood Green it would be possible to see it from the front seats of a Cravens unit if the driver had the driving compartments blinds up.

2.There was some major track & signalling alterations at Cemetery and between Cemetery & New Southgate and at New Southgate either in late 1967 or more likely in 1968 but i can't be more definite with the dates?.

3.Again now that you mention it I thought i had missed a road out with regards to the 'long crossover' from the Down slow line right accross to the Up siding road also on the Up side that tall metal tubular signal post situated underneath the tall bridge that carried x2 miniture arms i recall that signal post and signals appeared when they did the track & signalling alterations at New Southgate on the Up Goods line in either late 1967 or more likely in 1968?.

4.I bet it did make the frame look 'untidy' with that lever normally reversed in the frame and i would guess it did get in the way because as previously posted there wasn't much space between a reversed lever out of the frame and the back wall of the box plus another thing about New Southgate that was similar to Stevenage North box that i also got into was because both boxes were fairly low down and very close to the Up fast line trains passing the box (at speed) seemed very close almost to close to the box that you could almost touch them!!.

5.New Southgate's Down fast line & Down slow line semaphore starting signals towards Cemetery opposite the playing field to the left of the railway (also with Cemetery's semaphore inner distant signals beneath) were on reflection a 'fairly long pull' from the box when i think about them although i believe the signal wire run was quite straight i think thoses signal wires followed the course of the Down slow line through the station i think but i'm not totally sure about that?.

[StevieG]

I well remember that the box diagram showed those Down Starters as "1066 YARDS FROM BOX", and they were nearer to Cemetery than Southgate because C's diagram quoted them as something like only 700-odd yards away (might've been 757).

I remember the Southgate Up Reception 2-arm miniature signal you mention Mickey (57/58) being put in, new in '67 /'68 with its post looking to still be in red oxide-like colour, just a few yards in rear of the one it replaced (57), which was a single-armed miniature, just on the station side of the tall overbridge, bracketed out from the top of the high retaining wall : The slight oddity about this old one was that it applied both ways over 56 points, so you cleared the same arm for all moves from the Up Reception, whether it was for straight-ahead to the "Up Siding" and Dock, or through 56's to the Up Goods. Don't remember that this was coincident with any other changes though ; although it would have of course required changes to the locking, including bringing always-Spare lever 58 into use.

[9001 St Paddy]

I well remember that the box diagram showed those Down Starters as "1066 YARDS FROM BOX", and they were nearer to Cemetery than Southgate because C's diagram quoted them as something like only 700-odd yards away (might've been 757).

Yes those Down lines starting signals on both the Down fast & Down slow lines were nearer to Cemetery box than they were from New Southgate box i presume the possible reason that they were sighted that far from New Southgate box may have been something to do with any train that mite be 'setting back' off either the Down fast or Down slow lines through the 'long crossover' back towards New Southgate station would 'fit in' inside New Southgate's 'station limits' without the New Southgate signalman possibly having to use the 'shunt into forward section' (3-3-2 bell where authorised) to Cemetery?.

I remember the Southgate Up Reception 2-arm miniature signal you mention Mickey (57/58) being put in, new in '67 /'68 with its post looking to still be in red oxide-like colour, just a few yards in rear of the one it replaced (57), which was a single-armed miniature, just on the station side of the tall overbridge, bracketed out from the top of the high retaining wall : The slight oddity about this old one was that it applied both ways over 56 points, so you cleared the same arm for all moves from the Up Reception, whether it was for straight-ahead to the "Up Siding" and Dock, or through 56's to the Up Goods. Don't remember that this was coincident with any other changes though ; although it would have of course required changes to the locking, including bringing always-Spare lever 58 into use.

Yes i do vaguely remember that bracket post signal that pre-dated the tall straight tubular post signal with the x2 miniture arms on it and yes i believe you are dead right Stevie it was initially painted in a red oxide colour funny the memories that lurk in the back of the mind from nearly 50 years ago?.

Also no outter distant signal for Wood Green Up box No.4 on the Up fast line so i presume a Up express passing through New Southgate station and the box 'at speed' on first sighting a single yellow at New Southgate's Up fast line colour light starting signal (on the left-hand curve) would quickly shut off power and make an inital first brake application to bring the trains speed down before entering the Wood Green tunnel with the anticipation of either finding Wood Green Up box No.2s Up fast line home signal at danger or if it was 'off' Wood Green Up box No.4s Up fast line distant signal at caution and possibly the home signal at danger as well?.

All good fun in back in those days...