Whitby, Scarborough and Boulby

[52D]

Im suprised nothing has been mentioned about a Potash company planning a new mine and proposing to take the stuff out by rail using a reinstated part of the Yorkshire coast route. I have seen references in a couple of other groups i subscribe to.
Perhaps Bryan who usually fills us in with interesting snippets from the media can report local comments.

[richard]

An extension of Boulby Mine?

Globally, potash is meant to be in demand at the moment, so it makes some sense to expand operations.


Richard

[Bryan]

Plenty of discussion of varying quality on the NYMR unofficial forum.

http://nymrunofficialforum.createforumh ... it=hawsker

Other than that no news recently.

[PinzaC55]

There's been much discussion about this on other railway websites with some people hilariously suggestin that the line "may be reopened to Scarborough"!!!
In fact when the line was closed in 1965 a section was kept in situ because the original intention was to sink a mine near Hawsker and take it out by rail via Prospect Hill Junction and I assume that is still the plan. An article in the current Modern Railways suggests planning consent could be sought within 18 months.
These recently uploaded Flickr pictures are well worth a look as they show the line after closure.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/22370569@N ... 999838994/

[52D]

Thanks for the prompt replies guys, i wanted to air it on this forum as pinza notes there is some exited ramblings on other sites.

[PinzaC55]

Among the points made on the "other forums" were 1) Larpool Viaduct would not be strong enough to carry trains again and 2) It would cost too much to reopen the railway.
In answer to 1) It is a Listed structure and although it was fenced off for years my understanding is that this was because vandals had pushed some of the coping stones over.
2) I have been told Sirius paid York Potash £20 million for the Potash mining rights (ie just bits of paper) and they are a multinational company. The cost of relaying the track, hire or purchase of rolling stock would be like a drop in the ocean to them.

[woberty]

Interesting topic , Gentleman. I will try to be objective rather than subjective in my opinions.
Lets wait and see what facts are presented in reality.

I do think it would be good for the area to have a new mine. To provide jobs for local people etc..

I have relatives who live between Whitby and Scarborough who are acutely aware of the plan to mine for potash in that area.
They have told me that recently land prices have risen quite considerably even for marginal farm land.
The rumours are that the mine will be built inland, probably more towards the moors. The plant site itself will be smaller than Boulby, but be capable of a high output of potash.
It has been mentioned that they have found potash seams all the way across the sea to Germany !
In the last few decades there has been drilling attempts towards Hawsker for other things which did not come to fruition.

The proposal to reopen the railway line is i think fantasy.
As a kid i walked everyday to school over the footpath across the viaduct. I stand corrected but i think it got shut because of health and safety reasons as much as vandals.
Just as you come across the viaduct there used to be the "monkey bridge" where the footpath goes to Ruswarp. Then the line went to Prospect Hill Junction.
If the line was reinstated there. How far would you relay track towards West Cliff Station, before shunting back down the gradient towards Bog Hall and Whitby Station.

Would any relaid track not interfere with the roadbridge now crossing the Esk.
In Whitby itself you have the Coop Car-park. Plus new houses been built recently in and around where the listed Engine Sheds are.
Where would all the day-trippers park.

I guess they would then take the freight trains up the Esk Valley line towards Middlesborough or reopen the NYMR to Malton.
But the Esk Valley is at present single track since the removal of the other line in the 80s.
Plus there are alot of small bridges to cross the Esk at various points. For example Ruswarp.

No doubt someone will do a feasability and business plan for re-opening the line at either end. It could be done, but needs alot of work.

[PinzaC55]

"I do think it would be good for the area to have a new mine. To provide jobs for local people etc.."

Estimated total jobs including construction is 5000 - not inconsiderable in an area which since the decimation of fishing has little more than tourism going for it.

"In the last few decades there has been drilling attempts towards Hawsker for other things which did not come to fruition."

The only previous mention of drilling exploration I remember is in 1968.Techniques for extracting Potash have moved on a long way since then, as has the value of Potash.

"The proposal to reopen the railway line is i think fantasy.
As a kid i walked everyday to school over the footpath across the viaduct. I stand corrected but i think it got shut because of health and safety reasons as much as vandals.
Just as you come across the viaduct there used to be the "monkey bridge" where the footpath goes to Ruswarp. Then the line went to Prospect Hill Junction.
If the line was reinstated there. How far would you relay track towards West Cliff Station, before shunting back down the gradient towards Bog Hall and Whitby Station."

The line closed in 1965 but the track was retained between Hawsker and Whitby until 1973. The viaduct is not "unsafe" - if it was the H&SE would not allow an official footpath across it. It has been repaired in recent years and is well maintained.
When the section to West Cliff was abandoned sufficient track was retained to allow a full length train to reverse, as did the final final steam specials to Scarborough.

"Would any relaid track not interfere with the roadbridge now crossing the Esk.
In Whitby itself you have the Coop Car-park. Plus new houses been built recently in and around where the listed Engine Sheds are.
Where would all the day-trippers park. "

The line is unrelated to the road bridge.At Whitby there is still sufficient space for any additional sidings and if the day trippers have to park elsewhere so be it.


"I guess they would then take the freight trains up the Esk Valley line towards Middlesborough or reopen the NYMR to Malton.
But the Esk Valley is at present single track since the removal of the other line in the 80s.
Plus there are alot of small bridges to cross the Esk at various points. For example Ruswarp. "

The Esk Valley line only has 4 trains a day and has passing loops at Glaisdale and Battersby sufficient to handle the probably 2 extra trains a day the mine would produce. Relaying the Pickering to Malton line would be virtually impossible without national Government backing.Similarly opening the line to it's Scarborough end would be a lot of expense for no gain.Current thinking is Potash would be taken to Middlesbrough and exported there.

[Bryan]

From the proposed output figures I have heard of. Upto 100,000 tonnes a week.
I think that would require a few more than 2 trains a day.
Factor in the requirement for top and tailing with the three reversals required to get off the branch. Run round limits at Whitby station, Battersby and at Westcliffe.
After all that how many 100t hoppers could be catered for on each train? 10 possibly?

A pipeline has been discounted, Whitby harbour is now closed to commercial freight and any construction of a new dock nearer the mine site has also been discounted.

What may be a possibility would be a new alignment from South of Larpool viaduct near Stainsacre towards the stretch between Ruswarp and Sleights. This would eliminate 2 of the reversals and 2 runround constrictions. Couple that with the long proposed chord at Battersby and you have a clear run.
The only problem would be finding a path for the NYMR operations to Whitby and Battersby.

[52D]

By the way what exactly is potash and what are its uses?

[PinzaC55]

"From the proposed output figures I have heard of. Upto 100,000 tonnes a week.
I think that would require a few more than 2 trains a day."

Excellent news. More traffic for the railways.

"What may be a possibility would be a new alignment from South of Larpool viaduct near Stainsacre towards the stretch between Ruswarp and Sleights. This would eliminate 2 of the reversals and 2 runround constrictions. Couple that with the long proposed chord at Battersby and you have a clear run.
The only problem would be finding a path for the NYMR operations to Whitby and Battersby."

Hideous gradients, major unsightly earthworks and a new river bridge? New chord might tempt Network Rail and Northern Rail to simply abandon Battersby?
Unless the NYMR have an ironclad agreement with NR regarding access to Whitby I'd like to bet that if it came down to a standoff the Potash traffic would be deemed more important than the NYMR which is only seasonal tourist traffic.
A happy compromise would be to redouble through to Grosmont which I am sure Sirius could afford.

[PinzaC55]

By the way what exactly is potash and what are its uses?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potash

Mainly Potassium Carbonate, has a wide range of uses the major one being fertiliser. I read that the new mine might have an expected life span of 50 years. Personally I find the thought of trains crossing Larpool Viaduct mouthwatering.

[richard]

i see there it is described a range of Postassium salts - I understood it as primarily potassium sulphate. As well as using the K for NPK fertilisers, the sulphate is then useful for sulphuric acid production. So I think is probably what most of the North Sea evaporite potash is.

The Permian of the Britain and the North Sea include a number of evaporite cycles - where an entire interior sea completely evaporated leaving various salts behind. The salt deposits of Cheshire are another mined deposit from this sequence. As are the gypsum and anhydrite deposits found in various places (the gypsum operation just east of Leeds that closed about 20 years ago is an example).

The "Zechstein Salt" (Zechstein is a name of just one of the cycles) is responsible for the salt traps that dominate the southern North Sea gas fields.

So all in all, the Permian evaporites are economically very important for Britain!

My first thought regarding a location "between Whitby and Scarborough" is that this must be a very deep mine? Without looking at maps and boreholes, I would think it would be deeper than Boulby.


Richard

[woberty]

In the late 70s, you could walk quite easily across larpool viaduct.
But following an incident in the 80s on on Crowdy Hall side. Where someone got stuck in trees the bridge was alot better barricaded to stop anyone going across.

Im curious to know where exactly you would realign the line from hawsker to between sleights and ruswarp.
You would have to come across sneatonthorpe or ugglebarnby somewhere then to the right of oakley bank. Is there any actual plans or are we just speculating.
The gradient there is quite steep in places.

[PinzaC55]

"In the late 70s, you could walk quite easily across larpool viaduct. "

Unofficially. That was after all the 70's before the current draconian H&SE regime was thought of, and children were allowed to play Conkers without safety goggles.

"Im curious to know where exactly you would realign the line from hawsker to between sleights and ruswarp.
You would have to come across sneatonthorpe or ugglebarnby somewhere then to the right of oakley bank. Is there any actual plans or are we just speculating.
The gradient there is quite steep in places."

Only speculation as far as I can see. Although the mining company are not short of money they'd hardly want to chuck it away on a piece of railway which would be beset by planning regulations and be hugely expensive. If the trains were "topped and tailed" with suitably powerful locos, reversing at Prospect Hill need be no more time consuming than it was for DMU's in the 1960's. It might also have benefits for Whitby as the station might get upgraded signalling whereas
currently it has none.