ECS from Hornsey CS

[Mickey]

Bit of a strange set up anyway when you stop and think about it between Ashburton Grove & Holloway North Up boxes with the parallel run/round line?.

The Up carriage line more commonly known as 'the creep up' which I presume could only be accessed and travelled in one direction only the UP direction in the block section between Ashburton Grove and Holloway North Up boxes had a run/round line running parallel to the Up carriage line which could be accessed via the run/round line which was worked by spring and hand worked points only?. So what was stopping the Ashburton Grove signalman running a train along the Up carriage line towards Holloway North Up when some other train is doing a run/round move be side the Up carriage line and fouling or entering upon the Up carriage line with a train already passing Ashburton Grove box and running up the creep up?. Does that make sense?. Maybe I am missing something?.

[StevieG]

I can only take a guess Mickey; that the Ashburton signalman (or the man at F.P.2 if AG was switched out) would know when a train they sent in was being propelled and so would need to run-round, and that the Box Instructions prohibited another train being signalled into the section until 2-1 was received for the one running-round.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey well having lived alongside thru the '50's until '67 & being an avid observer of that stretch, I never once saw a transfer freight (what traffic would go from Clarence to the "X" yards or over the Widened Lines that didnt start @ Ferme Park)? from Clarence Yard up the "creep",possibly post those dates yep. light engine movements& Cravens when remarshalled for weekend workings, lots more when "FP" opened, a funny story my pal who lived in Wood Green was a second man I think @34B(Hornsey) would stop on the "creep"after tooting on the way up(much to the amusement of Parents &Neighbours to ask what "beat"club we would be going to over the weekend) pretty sure it was a 34A 350hp but he 34B? I suppose as mentioned the main bane of my life being that empty stock ex.the"X" giving them space I expect for a few hours,via Clarence Yard, that sat their for the best part of 2/3hrs every weekday blocking my view of the lines heading South.jj

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey well having lived alongside thru the '50's until '67 & being an avid observer of that stretch, I never once saw a transfer freight (what traffic would go from Clarence to the "X" yards or over the Widened Lines that didnt start @ Ferme Park)? from Clarence Yard up the "creep",possibly post those dates yep. light engine movements& Cravens when remarshalled for weekend workings,

Actually jj I wrote a 'trip freight' and not a transfer freight. One diagram that I recall working a secondman when I was at Kings Cross was 9B69 (or was it 8B69?) Kings Cross Goods yard to Temple Mills and the return working Temple Mills to Kings Cross Goods yard usually a fairly long goods train made up of box vans, mineral wagons & bogie bolster flat wagons with two brake vans at either end which always ran around at Finsbury Park and on the return journey went via 'the creep up' back to Kings Cross Goods yard.

[Mickey]

I can only take a guess Mickey; that the Ashburton signalman (or the man at F.P.2 if AG was switched out) would know when a train they sent in was being propelled and so would need to run-round, and that the Box Instructions prohibited another train being signalled into the section until 2-1 was received for the one running-round.

I reckon you are correct Stevie because I thought about it later and presumed some 'special instruction' may have been published in Ashburton Grove box or printed in the Sectional Appendix basically saying if a train is performing a run round movement on the Up carriage line (the creep up)-

The signalman in Ashburton Gove box must not allow any trains to proceed onto the Up carriage line between Ashburton Grove and Holloway North Up boxes until the run round movement was completed and the block section between both signal boxes was clear of any train or vehicles

or something to that effect?.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey gosh it happened then, after my time,a true inter transfer goods GE to GN not a trip working,still surprising though, for a terminal to terminal working,was ferme park closed by then? would have loved to have seen that working 2 guard's vans ,so you did the run round then?also my pal may have been working from "FP" with 34B closed apart from the Civil Engineers by this time, I know the Sulzers&NB's had gone by then.jj

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey gosh it happened then, after my time,a true inter transfer goods GE to GN not a trip working,still surprising though, for a terminal to terminal working,was ferme park closed by then? would have loved to have seen that working 2 guard's vans ,so you did the run round then?also my pal may have been working from "FP" with 34B closed apart from the Civil Engineers by this time, I know the Sulzers&NB's had gone by then.jj

9B69 (or 8B69?) was a nice little job jj and the train run round twice at Finsbury Park once on the way over to Temple Mills from Kings Cross Goods yard and the second time when on the return trip back from Temple Mills to the Goods yard, by the way manna knows all about this particular working after the same train he was on as a secondman 'came off the road' at Finsbury Park while running round I believe?. As for Ferme Park the Down yard sidings they were from about 1973 onwards had been re-laid as carriage sidings for stabling main line ECS although later on after the demise of loco hauled passenger trains the Ferme Park Down sidings were converted into a stone depot with stone trains using it.

[StevieG]

Hi Mickey gosh it happened then, after my time,a true inter transfer goods GE to GN not a trip working,still surprising though, for a terminal to terminal working,was ferme park closed by then? would have loved to have seen that working 2 guard's vans ,so you did the run round then?also my pal may have been working from "FP" with 34B closed apart from the Civil Engineers by this time, I know the Sulzers&NB's had gone by then.jj

9B69 (or 8B69?) was a nice little job jj and the train run round twice at Finsbury Park once on the way over to Temple Mills from Kings Cross Goods yard and the second time when on the return trip back from Temple Mills to the Goods yard, by the way manna knows all about this particular working after the same train he was on as a secondman 'came off the road' at Finsbury Park while running round I believe?. As for Ferme Park the Down yard sidings they were from about 1973 onwards had been re-laid as carriage sidings for stabling main line ECS although later on after the demise of loco hauled passenger trains the Ferme Park Down sidings were converted into a stone depot with stone trains using it.

[ Important not to confuse the Run-Round line beside the 'Creep-Up' ("Up Carriage" line) between Ashburton Grove and Holloway (usable only by trains on the way to Holloway Up sidings, or Kings X station or Goods, or going to the Southern via Farringdon), with trains that were going either way between the Holloway and Canonbury directions being run-round on any of the Down non-passenger lines beside Clarence Yard/"FP", in-section' between Fins.Pk. Nos. 2 & 3 signal boxes.]

I recall the Up Yard at Ferme Park still being quite extensive in about 1969 but looking little used.
I would guess that not much happened there until being formally taken out of use for remodelling into being Hornsey EMU Depot, which I'd guess would've started about 1972, with EMUs first going into public service in August 1976.

[Mickey]

I recall the Up Yard at Ferme Park still being quite extensive in about 1969 but looking little used.
I would guess that not much happened there until being formally taken out of use for remodelling into being Hornsey EMU Depot, which I'd guess would've started about 1972, with EMUs first going into public service in August 1976.

With regards to the Up sidings at Ferme Park I remember seeing them quite regularly when riding on trains to and from Kings Cross and passing through Hornsey between 1968-1975. by the end of the 1960s it was a vast open area of mainly empty rusty sidings waiting for redevelopment and as you say Stevie maybe from around 1972 they started to take out many of the old sidings roads and clearing the ground ready for relaying new track and ballasting along with building the new Hornsey EMU depot.

I did read a funny thing about those Ferme Park Up sidings a number of years ago that back in steam days if the siding road wasn't long enough for the train that it was pushing back into the siding road the loco would just continue to push the rear of the train 'off the rails and into the dirt' by a few lengths and then when the same train was about to depart the sidings the loco merely pulled the train out along with the few wagons and brake van that were in the dirt 'back onto the rails' and continued on it's way!. I don't know how true that was but it wouldn't surprise me because they use to do some nutty things back in the steam days ha ha ha...

I presume the above unorthodox lengthen of a siding road may have occurred back in GNR days although no era was actually mentioned that I can recall?.

[Mickey]

By the way mention was made on another topic thread of the Creek brothers three signalmen who worked around the London area possibly during the 1950s & 1960s and the first half of the 1970s anyway I personally didn't know any of them but I have posted this on here before years ago that one of the brothers around 1974-75 either came out of signalling or spent a lot of time as a 'points man' based in a small almost like a portable telephone box structure at the entrance to Ferme Park Down sidings (near to the former site of Ferme Park South Down box) because at the time I had come out of WGC box as a 'box lad' and was doing a bit of time as a secondman at Kings Cross and one of the loco drivers knew this bloke and mentioned to me one day that he was a signalman who had a couple of other signalmen brothers and they were all called Creek. I saw him a lot around the second half of 1974 and going into 1975 working as a points man pulling various hand points over to set up the road into Ferme Park Down sidings for approaching trains of ECS that were going into those sidings and sometimes on passing the entrance to Ferme Park Down sidings on a passing train you would see him sitting outside the portable telephone box structure that was his shelter which I believe had a telephone in it to talk with probably the shunter who would inform him on what empty carriage road to put the approaching train on I assume?.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey I suppose a "trip"working in later diesel days could be the distance you say Kings "X" Goods to Temple Mills,I was led to believe "trip" workings were short like Ferme Pk to KIngs "X"goods or Ashburton Grove to High Barnet /Brent to Somers Town etc within their own stand alone regions ,where as Ferme Pk. to Hither Green/Poplar etc or Feltham to Neasden, being "transfer" freights to between regions, I have of course only used London area inter-regional transfers as examples, this occuring nationwide in steam/early diesel days with the Prime example being I suppose Carlisle, but with many others.jj

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey I suppose a "trip"working in later diesel days could be the distance you say Kings "X" Goods to Temple Mills,I was led to believe "trip" workings were short like Ferme Pk to KIngs "X"goods or Ashburton Grove to High Barnet /Brent to Somers Town etc within their own stand alone regions ,where as Ferme Pk. to Hither Green/Poplar etc or Feltham to Neasden, being "transfer" freights to between regions, I have of course only used London area inter-regional transfers as examples, this occuring nationwide in steam/early diesel days with the Prime example being I suppose Carlisle, but with many others.jj

That is exactly what I had in mind jj when I said in my original post a 'trip freight' which may have been a 350hp diesel shunter or a class 31 loco pulling two or three wagons and a brake van maybe from Finsbury Park diesel depot to Kings Cross Goods yard or vice versa?. You mentioned about a 'transfer freight' jj I just mentioned a 'trip freight' in my original post and as for 9B69 Kings Cross Goods yard to Temple Mills and it's return working Temple Mills to Kings Cross Goods yard I only mentioned that train because your post implied you hadn't seen a freight train climbing up 'the creep up' from Ashburton Grove to the top of the creep up at Holloway so I just mentioned that train as an example of a train that was a regular freight working that did go up 'the creep up' going back to Kings Cross Goods yard in 1974.

[rockinjohn]

Hi Mickey all clear,but when you can. would like yourself/Manna or Stevie G?to explain what happened when you arrived @ these cross-region/area destinations eg.was it a quick turnaround always or in the case of Temple Mills go on the small servicing building for a meal break or even on to 30A for instructions from Control although the duty you mentioned was a "turnaround"as you say.thnks jj

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey all clear,but when you can. would like yourself/Manna or Stevie G?to explain what happened when you arrived @ these cross-region/area destinations eg.was it a quick turnaround always or in the case of Temple Mills go on the small servicing building for a meal break or even on to 30A for instructions from Control although the duty you mentioned was a "turnaround"as you say.thnks jj

It all depended on a number of circumstances jj. Maybe after arriving in a yard you mite have been taking another train back from whence you came from or maybe you mite have been going back light engine?. Usually once you had arrived in a yard the secondman (fireman) would get off the loco and go and make a can of tea in a 'shunters lobby' (a shunters bunk) sometimes located in a small group of buildings in a yard. Usually if you was taking another train back from whence you came from that train would probably already be 'made up' waiting go so it would be a case of 'hooking up' and if it was either partially or fully fitted a vacuum 'brake test' would be carried out or if it was all loose coupled wagons with a guards brake van in the rear of the train no brake test would be carried out. The locos coupling would usually be slung over the wagons hook next to the loco or it should be used as opposed to the wagon coupling being slung over the locos hook.

Once the coupling up process had been completed and any vacuum brake pipes as well had been connected up if the train was partially of fully fitted the guard would usually take a 'walk around his train' checking that everything appeared to be alright (also putting a tail lamp on the rear vehicle if the train was fully fitted or if the train was either loose coupled or a partially fitted goods train by putting a tail lamp and side lights on at the rear of his brake van) then he would take a walk up to the front end (the loco end) and usually 'bang on the cab side' which would always make the driver pull down his left-hand side window and have a quick chat with the guard who would usually tell the driver 'how many wagons or vehicles that he had on behind the loco' with the guard handing the driver a piece of paper with the trains consist details written down on it that the guard had got from the TOPS.

After that it was a case of waiting to exit the yard and getting the guards 'right away' either from the back cab of the loco in the case of a fully fitted train or from the rear of the train from his brake van for a loose coupled or partially fitted goods train. During daylight hours If the guard was in a brake van at the rear of the train many goods guards would wave a rolled up newspaper (white colour) to give the 'right away' signal to either the driver or secondman or during the hours of darkness a green light from a B.R. bardic lamp facing towards the loco to either the driver or the secondman it all depended if the train was maybe standing on a curve in sidings and it would be easier for the guard to give the 'right away' to the secondman. During the hours of darkness the rear of a loose coupled or partially fitted goods train was marked by the brake vans white side lights on either side of the brake van facing forward towards the loco and during the journey both the driver and secondman were suppose to 'look back along the train' occasionally to make sure the rear portion of a loose coupled or partially fitted goods train was still following on behind?.

[Mickey]

Talking of ECS trains and ECS workings reminds me of my short time at Stratford loco during 1979 as a secondman (fireman) and when I was with my regular driver on the few occasions that we were at Liverpool street station 'sitting on the stops' after bringing in a train of main line ECS from Thornton Fields carriage sidings for a main line departure anyway after bringing the ECS in we would then 'change ends' on the loco and were sitting behind a Down main line departure waiting for it to depart and on a number of occasions a old person (not the same old person) usually a old bloke probably in his 70s would be carrying a couple of suitcases and would stop at the loco cab (usually a class 31) and ask us was this train going to Ipswich or Norwich(?) and my driver would usually say "We pull our trains mate we don't push them" and then the old bloke would just turn and shuffle off along the platform and board the waiting train. Then my driver would usually always say "You know what they have in those suitcases?. MONEY!. Those two suitcases are stuffed full of twenty pound notes!."

I think he was kidding about the suitcases being stuffed full with £20 pound notes?. Was he??.