Coaches

[JohnV]

Back in the day, before Beeching, I used to travel from Bishop Auckland to Newcastle (direct, via Willington, Brancepeth etc) usually to see footie. The Saturday train was great - it left BA at 1.27 and arrived in Newcastle at about 2.15. This train came from Darlington (I appreciate it was timed for the football - after all, all daytime matches started at 3.00 in those days). The stock used was interesting. We quickly discovered a coach which was semi-corridor, so we always got into the corridor part where there was (an immaculate) WC. At one time, would this coach have been a composite so that the corridor part had been 1st Class in its previous existence?

[jwealleans]

Not necessarily. There were a few diagrams of steel stock built for the Saltburn - Newcastle services shortly before the war and I don't have diagrams to hand, but some of those (for example) which went to the GE section were Lavatory thirds, having a corridor the length of the carriage and a lav at each end.

A composite would most likely have had a separate lav for first and third and these were generally between the two classes, somewhere towards the middle depending on diagram.

Do you recall any more about the layout of the carriage and was it teak or steel?

[JohnV]

The carriage in question (we nearly always got in the same carriage) was steel but the corridor wasn't full length, only about half the carriage, possibly slightly less.

[65447]

If there was not a connecting gangway at the end of the carriage then it could be one of four possible carriage types:

A Gresley steel-panelled composite lavatory (CL) as one of a pair in twin-arts to dia.271, which had a very short corridor in the centre of one of the carriages serving two first class compartments, or as one of a pair in twin-arts to dia.322, which had an identical interior arrangement to the Gresley dia.299 CL carriage, which was the steel equivalent of his teak-panelled dias.49/50.

Or the later Thomson dia.338 CL equivalent of the Gresley dias.49/50, but arranged to be a mirror image of the Gresley layout and distinguishable by the oval toilet window.

[JohnV]

Thank you very much for these helpful comments/suggestions. On reflection, I think the carriage in question must have been the Thomson option. Interesting to know what such stock did all the rest of the week, because Bishop Auckland to Durham/Newcastle was mostly diesel by the date in question.

[60117 Bois Roussel]

Apologies for being a late arrival on this one!

In the West Riding, race specials for punters used to run from various points for the races at Wetherby. Observation shows that during BR days the proportion of CLs was gradually increased: they would have come from trains that had been replaced by the DMU. You can understand why with many a winner (or loser) a little worse for wear after refreshments of the alcoholic kind! I have always presumed that the 1st class compartments were derated on the day for the lower class, tickets only being sold for that class.

These trains were made up each time for this rural destination, and were quite long. The footie service you mention could have been the same, or it could have come via still-in-service secondary train sets in the District, single or doubled up.

Gresley's side-corridor TL was built for East Anglia and later cascaded to the NE Region, where it was a fine coach for general secondary services. We used an excellent picture of one in a train at Doncaster on p.12 in "LNER Passenger Trains and Formations: The principal services" - to show that quite a few so-called "non-corridor" coaches had corridors! The GCR had gone partly down the same path with its non-gangwayed 50ft clerestory CL, while the GNR had built non-gangway CL and TLs with a semi-open layout internally and several ended up on NE branchlines where they were perfect (the LMS had simply cascaded elderly gangwayed stock - with lavatories as standard - into such services). I'm glad that you spotted and made a bee-line for them!

Steve

[1H was 2E]

(the LMS had simply cascaded elderly gangwayed stock - with lavatories as standard - into such services).

Just to observe that the LMS DID build non-gangwayed lavatory stock in reasonable numbers before the war; mostly of the earlier, wood panel type and only a few steel panelled ones. They were used in what they called "inter district sets' though, rather than branch lines. On a personal note, although I took an interest in coaches from about 1960 I only noticed the strikingly different stock (an ex Coronation Scot BSK or ?BFK with no gangway at the brake end was about locally for a while, and I even managed a ride in an LMS artic TSO pair) the LMS design was so similar to the compartment stock (just 3 windows instead of 2 between a few doors) that I don't remember ever noticing one. Of course, the BR standard SO(NG), confined I think to the KX area (?) was so different that it couldn't really be missed!
Those familiar with '00' gauge model railway products will know that, curously, this (LMS) stock was the choice of one manufacturer in the 80's even though no models of the much more common all compartment design were available then.

[robertcwp]

This negative came with no information other than location and date but could possibly be a special - maybe for Wetherby? Lots of lavatory carriages in the set:

80118_CrossGates_21-6-60 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[60117 Bois Roussel]

Just to observe that the LMS DID build non-gangwayed lavatory stock in reasonable numbers before the war; mostly of the earlier, wood panel type and only a few steel panelled ones. They were used in what they called "inter district sets' though, rather than branch lines. On a personal note, although I took an interest in coaches from about 1960 I only noticed the strikingly different stock (an ex Coronation Scot BSK or ?BFK with no gangway at the brake end was about locally for a while, and I even managed a ride in an LMS artic TSO pair) the LMS design was so similar to the compartment stock (just 3 windows instead of 2 between a few doors) that I don't remember ever noticing one. Of course, the BR standard SO(NG), confined I think to the KX area (?) was so different that it couldn't really be missed!
Those familiar with '00' gauge model railway products will know that, curously, this (LMS) stock was the choice of one manufacturer in the 80's even though no models of the much more common all compartment design were available then.

Yes, it's a complex picture, and practices between LMS and LNER differed. The LMS did build non-gangwayed lavatory stock but relatively few and used them sparingly only where it deemed they were important. In some cases, out of Manchester for example, where the LNWR had provided them, the LMS modernised the formations without them; a retrograde step, really. In cross-country services, for example, LMS policy was to place an elderly gangwayed carriage in the train.

If I may simplify, the GNR/LNER provided non-lavatory stock for KX Inner Suburban services, but lavatories for Outer Suburban; hence the insistence in BR days on the Mk.1 SLO and in a 6-coach train, four carriages with well-accessed lavatories.

The ultimate solution, was to deploy complete sets of gangwayed stock. The LNER started in the NE Area in 1938 with newly-built carriages; the LMS after the War with cascaded ones. I'm embarrassed to say that I have quite a long account for Back Track that's got side-tracked.

Regarding race specials to Wetherby, many a punter came back a little the worse for wear and likely to be caught short, and the ER learned to provide increasing numbers of semi-corridor lavatory composites - very popular coaches - as they became displaced by the DMU. The one picture I have of an LMR formation out of Leeds City is stunning with not a lavatory in sight - what was the LMR thinking about?!

Steve