Howlden Brake Vehicle Roof Struts?

[MikeTrice]

A number of GNR Howlden Brake vehicles have ribs that run across the roof as can be seen in this photo of 948 in the NRM. Can anyone enlighten me as to their purpose?

[65447]

Mike,

Just a supposition, but did they have skylights, as per the brake vans that came later?

[JASd17]

Most of the Howlden vehicles did have skylights.

But, typical GNR of the period, not all had 'roof struts'. They may have been to strengthen the roof over the brake compartment?

John

[Seagull]

You mention it only seems to appear on the brake vans, many of which had skylights.
Cutting a big square hole in a slightly curved wooden roof would not help it's strength or ability to retain its shape.

As only some of them have it, I wonder if it was added to strengthen those vehicles which were found to have sagging roofs.

HNG mentioned switching to eliptical roofs because they were stronger, also he did not use skylights in his brake vehicles.

Alan

[MikeTrice]

Thanks for the thoughts so far.

Yes they did have skylights, however I would not expect cutting a hole for them to be an issue with strength. Typically the roof profile is formed of hoopsticks which are laid across the top of the carriage body. 7/8" planks are then fixed to them longitudinally. Where a skylight apears I would expect there to be a hoopstick either side of it.

Interestingly the photo provided of 948 shows these extra ribs/struts in the middle of the vehicle where there is no skylight, and yes some vehicles with skylights did not appear to have these strips. All very curious.

[MikeTrice]

Just had another thought which might blow my hoopstick theory out of the water.

Typically these vehicles were compartment vehicles which meant that the interior partitions provided strength to support the roof, however for brake vehicles they would not have been present so it could be that these vehicles needed additional strengthening. Metal hoopsticks were certainly introduced by all the railways especially in conjunction with semi-elliptical roofs which together with the cross section would have had far greater strength in the eventuality of a vehicle rolling over.

It could be that the Howldens' predated metal hoopsticks and needed the extra support. By fixing them outside rather than inside it would have increased headroom for the poor old guard. Still does not explain why they don't all have them.

[jwealleans]

he (HNG) did not use skylights in his brake vehicles

Didn't the 58' non-corridor stock have rooflights? I think his early elliptical stock did as well but I'm not at home to check sources. I'd swear that the models I've built have them.

[MikeTrice]

You are correct that some of the elliptical roofed stock did have skylights, so it would appear that Gresley did use them.

[JASd17]

he (HNG) did not use skylights in his brake vehicles

Didn't the 58' non-corridor stock have rooflights? I think his early elliptical stock did as well but I'm not at home to check sources. I'd swear that the models I've built have them.

Jonathan you are correct. Gresley did use roof lights in his GNR elliptical non-corridor stock and in a few diagrams of dome ended corridor stock too.

As far as I know no LNER Diagram had roof lights.

John

[MikeTrice]

ECJS Full Brake (LNER no 109) built 1908 with Gresley domed roof (as preserved by the NRM) has them but I cannot find a good photo to illustrate.

[john coffin]

HI mike
have been getting on with living for a while, so have not been following the forum, however, this is interesting.
I have very few photos showing the rooves of Howlden carriages from above, and the few I have do not show these strips.
In the photo you have shown, the skylights are clearly visible as well and it is a restored carriage, so I wonder whether in
fact the strips were much later additions, for instance LNER rebuilds when the quality of wood available may well not
have been as good. Certainly the somewhat wrecked brake at Tanfield does not show any evidence of the strips, but the
holes in the roof make it difficult to be sure.

It seems logical that it is a way of supporting the roof over a brake compartment due to repairs, for instance rather than
stripping the hole roof cover back and installing new complete wooden laths the whole length of the carriage, they
may have used shorter lengths and held them up from the top, since there is no compartment end to support it.

Mind you the compartment dividers on Howlden carriages were pretty slender anyway. I will check the photos I took at Tanfield and
see whether I can see any pointers.

Paul

[john coffin]

Just a thought, since it is a preserved carriage, I wonder whether these strips are to support where the original gas pots were installed, after removal, and to provide a location for the electric lights which were later put in. It is important to remember that both the GNR and LNER were parsimonious when it came to spending money on carriages .

For instance the real reason Gresley produced artic carriages was money saving. All those old 6 wheel bodies which were in good condition could have their lives extended at less than half the price of new corridor bogie carriages. So when installing electricity, did they not re-roof them with full length laths, and new canvas but rather patch repairs and support for the ends.

Paul

[MikeTrice]

You can also see them on official photos of the carriages as built so they were not necessarily a later addition.

[2512silverfox]

When No 948 was stripped for refurbishment for the NRM in 1975, we were able to inspect the roof very closely and I can confirm that the struts appeared to have been an original fitting, unlike the vents and gas pots which we removed for the, as built, restoration.

I have a number of photos of the roofs of Howlden stock under the train shed at Kings Cross, and the struts are evident in all the brake vehicles.

They may have been a strengthening practise near to skylights.

If it would help, I will scan the photos concerned.

[john coffin]

Must confess I would be really happy to see that photo since none of the ones I can find so far suggest any struts.
Certainly the two or so drawings I have do not show such roof detail.

paul