new Flying Scotsman 1938 carriage diagrams used..

[greenglade]

hi guys

I'm trying to work out the exact coaches etc that were used on the 1938 Flying Scotsman train, i have the tome 'LNER passenger trains and formations 1923-67' for reference and although it has a nice drawing of the components that make up the 1938 train it doesn't give diagram details to allow me to source the correct drawings. Isinglass give details for the corridor composite as dia:251/279, triplet rest car set as dia: 255 and the buffet car as dia: 258.
This leaves me following diagrams to find out:
corridor 3rd brake 24 seats 61'6"
corridor 3rd 42 seats 61'6"
corridor 1st 24 seats 61'6"
luggage van 61'6"

rolling stock types is a complete mystery to me so any help would be very much appreciated... btw I have ordered 'LNER Carriages by Michael Harris to help me in my quest to learn more about the various coach types used by the LNER

cheers

Pete

[65447]

Vestibuled Brake Third Dia. 261 numbers 1840 & 1841 (1943 numbers 16723 & 16724)
Vestibuled Third Dia. 256 numbers 1842-1849 (1943 numbers 13676-82)
Vestibuled First Dia. 257 numbers 1850 & 1851 (1943 numbers 11118 & 11119)
Vestibuled Brake Dia. 260 numbers 1012 & 1013(1943 numbers 70550 & 70551)

Extract from East Coast July 1939 Until Further Notice Carriage Working shows the 10.00 Down ex KX; there was a balanced Up working.

Footnotes explaining above added...

The workings mentioned on those other pages are the reverse movements from the destination, usually that described in the last column headed 'UP WORKING'. East Coast and GN workings differed in the means of identification of the type of vehicle, the 'CLASS' either being the actual running number - as in this instance - or the first number of the vehicle type in others.

[greenglade]

that's fantastic...excuse my ignorance but what do the numbers stand for..ie 1840&1841...are these serial numbers that would be painted on the side? Also looking at the dia 261 brake third would I be right in thinking that this is Isinglass drawing number 127A?

many thanks

Pete

[jwealleans]

In these CW documents, a 'K' indicates that that is the running number of the particular vehicle to be used.

Where there is no 'K', the number indicates the type of vehicle, but for this prestige service you have a very specific set of carriages ordered.

I don't know what the 'L' indicates against the TK?

[65447]

I don't know what the 'L' indicates against the TK?

Footnotes from the Carriage Working and my explanation now added to my post...

[60117 Bois Roussel]

The letter "K" generally referred to actual vehicles with a stated running number that were used in a high quality formation going out, and coming back with a different formation, and to ensure that they were not borrowed for a lesser train. If there were more such cases, letters "L, M" and "N" were used. A good example is in the 1939 CW book for the 10am "Flying Scotsman" (shown above) and 10.5am "Junior Scotsman".

The key thing is that the "Flying Scotsman" was rostered for one less coach in the UP direction. The DOWN train is shown above with all the stock "K" except for a single one marked "L" in the middle of the Aberdeen portion, which was the coach taken out and transferred to the UP Junior Scotsman.

The summer F/S was relatively simple, with two portions, while the Junior F/S had six in which many of the carriages were of a lower order and could use whatever example of the right type was available.

[robertcwp]

I have the summer 1938 East Coast Carriage Workings - a rather tatty copy currently awaiting scanning in full.

Here are the pages showing the down and up Flying Scotsman:

[Dave]

Thank you Robert.

[Kestrel]

It was quite an achievement getting which coach where and they did it all without computers. I doubt if many mistakes were made.