Which style tender did 60103 Flying Scotsman run with in the 1950's? In particular during its time allocated to Leicester GC shed....
Chris
Flying Scotsman tender
Moderators: 52D, Tom F, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard
-
Chris Grouse
- NBR J36 0-6-0
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:38 pm
Flying Scotsman tender
Chris Grouse, Duty Station Master Quorn GCR, Senior Conductor EMT
-
greenglade
- GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
- Posts: 512
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Hi Chris
Flying Scotsman tender for that era was a streamlined non corridor type, she had this tender from 1938 until 1963 when she was sold to Pegler. tender number was 5640
regards
Pete
Flying Scotsman tender for that era was a streamlined non corridor type, she had this tender from 1938 until 1963 when she was sold to Pegler. tender number was 5640
regards
Pete
-
Chris Grouse
- NBR J36 0-6-0
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:38 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Do the corridor and non corridor tenders look the same? I ask as my N gauge model of Scotsman has a corridor tender, and the only non corridor LNER tender available is the non streamlined version...
Chris
Chris
Chris Grouse, Duty Station Master Quorn GCR, Senior Conductor EMT
-
greenglade
- GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
- Posts: 512
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Hi Chris
All of the 8 wheeled tenders look similar but there are differences which stand out to those who know the design, there are two main things that stand out from a distance and in N gauge are probably what would be noticed most. The early GNR tender with coal rails is easy to spot and i note that there are models in N out there. The corridor has a number of obvious differences...the corridor connection on the rear, the front coal wall, right angled corridor roof seen from above with rail. Another point that's not so obvious in this scale is the soleplate which on the GNR and high sided tenders sticks out along the length of the body whereas the streamlined tender has no such soleplate, there are other things, such as cowls and front wall height but I doubt many would pick up on the later.
I'm not familiar with N gauge so don't know what's available...I did a quick search which is when I discovered the GNR as well as the corridor types available..i did find a selection of bodies for sale on eBay where one does look like a streamlined body but again not being familiar with what's acceptable in this scale I don't know what compromises are made by the manufacturers. I found this... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/231754146648?rmvSB=true.. the Garter blue looks very much like a streamlined tender as I can't see the corridor roof nor the door on the front coal wall. However the unpainted green tender behind clearly has the corridor connection and yet no sign of the corridor itself ? As i said I don't know what's acceptable in this scale so perhaps these details are left off or reduced greatly for ease of manufacture.
Hope my ranting is of some use....
Pete
All of the 8 wheeled tenders look similar but there are differences which stand out to those who know the design, there are two main things that stand out from a distance and in N gauge are probably what would be noticed most. The early GNR tender with coal rails is easy to spot and i note that there are models in N out there. The corridor has a number of obvious differences...the corridor connection on the rear, the front coal wall, right angled corridor roof seen from above with rail. Another point that's not so obvious in this scale is the soleplate which on the GNR and high sided tenders sticks out along the length of the body whereas the streamlined tender has no such soleplate, there are other things, such as cowls and front wall height but I doubt many would pick up on the later.
I'm not familiar with N gauge so don't know what's available...I did a quick search which is when I discovered the GNR as well as the corridor types available..i did find a selection of bodies for sale on eBay where one does look like a streamlined body but again not being familiar with what's acceptable in this scale I don't know what compromises are made by the manufacturers. I found this... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/231754146648?rmvSB=true.. the Garter blue looks very much like a streamlined tender as I can't see the corridor roof nor the door on the front coal wall. However the unpainted green tender behind clearly has the corridor connection and yet no sign of the corridor itself ? As i said I don't know what's acceptable in this scale so perhaps these details are left off or reduced greatly for ease of manufacture.
Hope my ranting is of some use....
Pete
-
greenglade
- GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
- Posts: 512
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Hi Chris...just to add to above.... this is the tender that you need.....
other differences that i forgot...the streamlined has straight side sheets, ie the ends don't curve in as they do on the loco cab and there is no beading around the edges of the side sheets/back.
Pete
other differences that i forgot...the streamlined has straight side sheets, ie the ends don't curve in as they do on the loco cab and there is no beading around the edges of the side sheets/back.
Pete
-
Chris Grouse
- NBR J36 0-6-0
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:38 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Are there any more pictures of the non corridor tender? Can't get one in N, so I'm gonna have to doctor a corridor tender....
Chris
Chris
Chris Grouse, Duty Station Master Quorn GCR, Senior Conductor EMT
-
greenglade
- GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
- Posts: 512
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Hi Chris
not of the 'streamlined' but I do have these 3 of the 'high sided' tender, the two types are very similar.
First picture from the front, the front coal wall would be more or less identical, differences are the streamlined side sheets don't curve in like they do on this 'high sided' version, they continue straight although do have the same profile, also there would be no beading around the edges. One other point to note is that for the era that you are modelling the front coal wall would go higher to match the cab on the loco, this was an added section riveted on rather than a new panel, the water vents wouldn't be seen either as they had a different shape to allow for the cowling that was fitted at the same time.
Side view.....take away the beading, straighten the side sheet so that the entire panel is flat(streamlined) remove the water vents, add height to the front coal wall with it's associated cowling and you will have a streamlined tender...the soleplate also needs trimming back flush with the side sheet but I doubt if you'll notice this in 'N'
Lastly a view from the rear...not much to do here...just the beading from the top edge There is one other point but I'm not sure if/when a change was made for Flying Scotsman....in the photo's here the tender has spoke'd wheels, Flying Scotsman's streamlined tender certainly had spoke'd wheels in the late 30's as the first picture I posted confirms. Now according to RCTS these wheels were replaced for the disc wheels and it reads that all tenders were so treated when bought into the works for servicing. To date I haven't been able to find any reference that gives details for when each tender was so updated or even if updated at all?
Hope this helps?
regards
Pete
not of the 'streamlined' but I do have these 3 of the 'high sided' tender, the two types are very similar.
First picture from the front, the front coal wall would be more or less identical, differences are the streamlined side sheets don't curve in like they do on this 'high sided' version, they continue straight although do have the same profile, also there would be no beading around the edges. One other point to note is that for the era that you are modelling the front coal wall would go higher to match the cab on the loco, this was an added section riveted on rather than a new panel, the water vents wouldn't be seen either as they had a different shape to allow for the cowling that was fitted at the same time.
Side view.....take away the beading, straighten the side sheet so that the entire panel is flat(streamlined) remove the water vents, add height to the front coal wall with it's associated cowling and you will have a streamlined tender...the soleplate also needs trimming back flush with the side sheet but I doubt if you'll notice this in 'N'
Lastly a view from the rear...not much to do here...just the beading from the top edge There is one other point but I'm not sure if/when a change was made for Flying Scotsman....in the photo's here the tender has spoke'd wheels, Flying Scotsman's streamlined tender certainly had spoke'd wheels in the late 30's as the first picture I posted confirms. Now according to RCTS these wheels were replaced for the disc wheels and it reads that all tenders were so treated when bought into the works for servicing. To date I haven't been able to find any reference that gives details for when each tender was so updated or even if updated at all?
Hope this helps?
regards
Pete
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Just search for photos of Hornby R2339 Mallard she is pulling the correct Tender.
Some here
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hornb ... 80&bih=680
Some here
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=hornb ... 80&bih=680
-
Chris Grouse
- NBR J36 0-6-0
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:38 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Thanks for the replies!
I'm wondering, is the tender on the current Farish A2 the same as what Scotsman would have had in the 50's?
Chris
I'm wondering, is the tender on the current Farish A2 the same as what Scotsman would have had in the 50's?
Chris
Chris Grouse, Duty Station Master Quorn GCR, Senior Conductor EMT
-
greenglade
- GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
- Posts: 512
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
I did a quick search on google for the Farish A2...as the saying goes 'close but no cigar' it has some good points, straight side sheets, no beading..in general pretty close. Two very obvious differences from Flying Scotsman's tender though....first the rivet detail....there was no rivets on the FS tender, second the Farish tender has the low front coal wall. However of the options we've seen in N so far this is probably the easiest to modify.
regards
Pete
regards
Pete
-
Chris Grouse
- NBR J36 0-6-0
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:38 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
How much modification would it need? And then there's the question of how easy it would be to fit the A2 tender body to the old GRAFAR tender chassis....
Would it not just be easier to remove the corridor connector from my current tender and make the rear of the tender flush? Or just not bother and live with the inaccurate tender? Which would bug me a little bit, I'm no rivet counter but now I know it's the wrong tender...!!
To be fair the old Farish A3 isn't that finely detailed anyway, but I'm part way through giving my other A3 60052 'Prince Palatine' some detailing, fine scale bogie, head lamps, front drawbar, dummy coupling, vac pipe and cab glazing, as well as painting over the bronze pick ups where they show between the driving wheels, and I'm going to do the same to Scotsman too, might even go down the 'real coal in the tender' route if I feel adventurous enough!
I don't even know if Palatine is correct for the era, it's got German style smoke deflectors and the low side GN tender with coal rails. Weren't the smoke deflectors an early 60's thing?
Chris
Would it not just be easier to remove the corridor connector from my current tender and make the rear of the tender flush? Or just not bother and live with the inaccurate tender? Which would bug me a little bit, I'm no rivet counter but now I know it's the wrong tender...!!
To be fair the old Farish A3 isn't that finely detailed anyway, but I'm part way through giving my other A3 60052 'Prince Palatine' some detailing, fine scale bogie, head lamps, front drawbar, dummy coupling, vac pipe and cab glazing, as well as painting over the bronze pick ups where they show between the driving wheels, and I'm going to do the same to Scotsman too, might even go down the 'real coal in the tender' route if I feel adventurous enough!
I don't even know if Palatine is correct for the era, it's got German style smoke deflectors and the low side GN tender with coal rails. Weren't the smoke deflectors an early 60's thing?
Chris
Chris Grouse, Duty Station Master Quorn GCR, Senior Conductor EMT
-
greenglade
- GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
- Posts: 512
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Well for the farish tender not much at all...the rivets could be sanded off and the front coal wall could have the higher front section added including it's cowling, this wouldn't look out of place as that's what was done to the prototype. The joint had a reinforcing band over it which was riveted in place, fresh coat of paint and you should have what you need. I'm afraid that I can't help in regards to the body fitting other chassis's, I know very little about N gauge, I build much larger models. Another option would be to scratch build the body, however that would depend on your own abilities, it shouldn't present any problems. This is what I would do but then I'm a model maker by trade so this would be a simple thing for me to do.
Regarding 'Prince Palatine', the GN tender is correct, that's the only tender fitted to this loco throughout it's career, the smoke deflectors were fitted October 1962
Have a go at scratch building the Tender Chris, the body is a pretty straight forward shape and you can take the general dimensions from your other model, or buy one of the drawings from Isinglass and scale accordingly.
Oh and yes go for real coal, imho you can't beat it...
regards
Pete
Regarding 'Prince Palatine', the GN tender is correct, that's the only tender fitted to this loco throughout it's career, the smoke deflectors were fitted October 1962
Have a go at scratch building the Tender Chris, the body is a pretty straight forward shape and you can take the general dimensions from your other model, or buy one of the drawings from Isinglass and scale accordingly.
Oh and yes go for real coal, imho you can't beat it...
regards
Pete
-
shiney sheff
- NER Y7 0-4-0T
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2016 6:04 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Maybe a stupid question from a newbie, I have a Graham Farish Knight of the Thistle which is supplied with a small none corridor tender, did Flying Scotsman ever run with this type of tender or just the ones shown above.
Thanks Bob
Thanks Bob
-
greenglade
- GCR O4 2-8-0 'ROD'
- Posts: 512
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 1:59 pm
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Hi Bob
No questions are stupid...
When you say 'small tender' are you referring to a 6 wheel tender? all the 8 wheeled are of similar size.....if so it's a yes and no answer...no she never ran with a six wheel but yes she was coupled to a 6 wheeled tender for the static display at Wembley in 1925...this was due to less space being available than there had been in 1924 where iirc she did have an eight wheeled GNR tender.
regards
Pete
No questions are stupid...
When you say 'small tender' are you referring to a 6 wheel tender? all the 8 wheeled are of similar size.....if so it's a yes and no answer...no she never ran with a six wheel but yes she was coupled to a 6 wheeled tender for the static display at Wembley in 1925...this was due to less space being available than there had been in 1924 where iirc she did have an eight wheeled GNR tender.
regards
Pete
Re: Flying Scotsman tender
Peter,
Could the 'small' Bob be referring to be a GNR tender as Knight of (the) Thistle ran with one from build to 10/35 when it then ran with a NT ( new type non corridor) and then back to a GNR from 6/37 to withdrawal 6/64, so both LNER/BR livery would be correct
Ron
Could the 'small' Bob be referring to be a GNR tender as Knight of (the) Thistle ran with one from build to 10/35 when it then ran with a NT ( new type non corridor) and then back to a GNR from 6/37 to withdrawal 6/64, so both LNER/BR livery would be correct
Ron