A4 Liveries

[Graeme Leary]

I have 2 questions concerning liveries:-

(1): Wartime Black: I have seen photos of this livery with just the letters NE on the tender but can't track down any with LNER. Could anybody please confirm Wartime Black was done with all 4 letters and which were the locos so 'adorned'?

(2): LNER Green with FULL Black smokebox: I understand there were 5 A4s so painted (4483/Kingfisher; 4484/Falcon; 4485/Kestrel; 4486/Merlin & 4484/Sea Eagle). I am adapting a model as 4484/Falcon but on repainting the parabolic green curve to Black I also notice the model's valances are lined in a very fine red. Should this be painted to 'all-over' plain Black or did these 5 FULL Black smokebox A4s have the valances lined in red as described.

Thanks for any comments.

Graeme Leary

[West_Stanley]

As far as I know, ALL of the A4's in all black wartime livery had their LNER initials shortened to NE. To my knowledge, none of the Apple Green liveried A4's had a full black smoke box, just the anabolic design that the rest of them had.

Again to my knowledge, it was proposed to paint the two A4's, 4495 Golden Fleece and 4496 Golden Shuttle - which were earmarked for the West Riding Ltd. service - Sky Blue, as seen in LNER posters. But just before they opened the cans of paint, they decided to paint the entire fleet Garter Blue; the livery of the locomotives used on the Coronation service (4488 Union of South Africa; 4489 Dominion of Canada; 4490 Empire of India; 4491 Commonwealth of Australia; 4492 Dominion of New Zealand

[JASd17]

Some of the green liveried A4s, Nos. 4483-7, certainly did carry the style of straight smokebox black-green boundary, and in traffic too. There is plenty of photographic evidence.

Unfortunately, I believe there is a published source which is incorrect on this matter, Not sure which one though?

As to the red lining on the valance, I think it may have been the same as on 4482, running along the top and bottom edges, but the red line does not show up on the images I have.

John

[mick b]

Coronation and others with metal numbers/letters had them painted matt yellow when Black. Some Locos when black still used LNER , NE was used when other transfers had run out from late 1942 . Changes were only made when locos were shopped. Info RCTS Pt 2a

I do not understand no 2 ? if you asking were the valanced lined in red when painted in Green then yes as below.

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks all. A few comments:-

West Stanley: Re my note on photographs I have seen with just 'NE' on the tender. Think I may have fallen for a bit of a massive ego blowout by a director of Fitzherbert Wright when he 'temporarily renamed' Merlin with the names of his 3 children (Bryan, Davina and Brigid), photographic evidence of which are on p40/41 of the Irwell Press 'The Book of the A4 Pacifics' (I presume the numbers on the cabsides in these shots are the birth years of these 3 - possibly spoiled - children. That aside, I still have some idea that I have in fact seen just 'NE' on some not-so bastardized A4 tender in Black).

JASdi7: My source on info re the Full Black smokebox on otherwise 'regular' LNER Green is an article (downloaded from on line I think) called 'An A4 by Any Other Name' by one Mel Haigh, Education Officer of The Sir Nigel Gresley Locomotion Preservation Trust Ltd. This seems to be very factual and Mr Haigh's 'provenance sounds kosher. (Worth a look if not seen, with 8 very detailed sections and the link at the foot of the pages I've printed out is http://www.gresley.org.uk/a$names.htm) The reference to the Full Black smokebox is in Part 3 and lists the 5 so painted A4s on p3 (and West Stanley, a relook at p4 of Part Four does indeed make no mention of just 'NE' - Fitzherbert Wright did have me sucked in - mea culpa for raising it).

mickb: Re 2: your shot is as my original model but now that I've painted the full black smokebox (back to the first band), my query was would the valances for these 5 A4s (as listed in article above) have had the red valance linings. This doesn't seem to be covered by this article.

Thanks again.
Graeme

[mick b]

Re Green A4's yes all were lined.

[silverfox]

Graeme,
i wouldnt take anything from the A4 mob as being 'kosher' The current education officer one David Macintosh gets it spectacularly incorrect in his book on Gresley locos ( all re hashed stuff...nothing new..) when he refers to Lady Wedgwood as the wife of the Chairman ( should be General manager) they even get his name spelt wrongly on their website!!!!

[S.A.C. Martin]

Yes, David McIntosh's latest book has a number of errors and a large number of omissions too, whether crediting Thompson, Harrison, Peppercorn or Spencer, quite frankly.

Disappointing but unsurprising as he seems to have been mostly waging war on "unbalanced duck fanatics" instead of acting as chairman of the Gresley Society...

[JASd17]

Graeme,

I was not questioning your understanding of the facts re-4483-7, but I do contest those of West_Stanley.

As to later thoughts about the Gresley Society I have no comment, I am not a member. However, I am no longer on the LNER Society Committee, due, in part to events at the GS AGM.

John

[Graeme Leary]

The plot doth thicken. I should have opened this dialogue before I applied Black paint to the smokebox of my pristine LNER Green Golden Eagle model as, now it's dried, it will be difficult to remove! Remember down here in the Antipodes it's summer and paint takes about 10 minutes to dry hard.
In future I will treat anything in print as 'subject to confirmation' but if there are any more thoughts out there about this, I would certainly be very keen to hear (and please, somebody make my Christmas and confirm that there were in fact a few Green A4s painted this way with the Black smokebox).
Graeme

[jwealleans]

Graeme,

Don't worry about your loco, I'm sure it's correct. I'll stick my neck out and say that West_Stanley's post (with apologies) is simply wrong with regard to smokebox painting. As an aside, the curve is 'parabolic', not 'anabolic', which seems to be a category of hormone.

There are plenty of photographs in existence but the only ones Google returns for me are Mick's models and one of Tom Foster's. I'd have no hesitation in saying they are correct - a thin white band at the rear of the smokebox and a red line around the edge of the black valance, top and bottom.

[silverfox]

John

Was it the attitude of a certain chairman of both the P2 and LNER society?

Ron

[Dave]

LNER Drawing Q-110-2 Outside view of A4 class engine (green livery) 1939 shows.

Valance painted black with a 3/16" red line set 1" in from the top and bottom
edges. These lines start from the rear of the cab (door) and extend forward. The
top valance line continues to the front of the loco then follows the curve to finish
on the bottom edge of the valance just in front of the leading bogie wheel.
The bottom line stops when it meets the rear of the cyl covering, the 2 lines do not
join up.

The parabolic curve is lined with a single 3/16" white line.

The drawing does not show any lining to the loco frames, only a single 3/16" red line
to the bottom of the tender frames which runs between the steps and around the axle box
castings, no other red lining is shown.

Handrails green, gold lettering (1'-0") set 2'-8" up (to the gold not the shading).

Again use photographic evidence to be sure, the drawings were not always followed fully.

[Graeme Leary]

Thank you all for the early Christmas present - ie confirmation (I take it as) that I can happily complete my adaptation of the now full Black smokebox Green A4 as Falcon/4484 and leave the red lined valances as they are. (I also note in my early list of A4s with this full Black smokebox that I incorrectly noted Sea Eagle as 4484 and it was only mick b's photo of Sea Eagle with 4487 that I realised I had 'goofed' - apologies; I will be more careful in future).
Merry Christmas all; may (hopefully) be last for 2015.
Graeme

[JASd17]

Dave, some interesting notes on the drawing. I didn't think the red line carried on under the cylinder area, which you confirm.

Is the drawing really dated 1939? They were all painted Garter Blue by October 1938. Curious.

John