Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

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2745CaptainCuttle
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Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by 2745CaptainCuttle » Mon May 02, 2016 3:03 am

Today's the 88th anniversary of when 4472 pulled the first non-stop Flying Scotsman service from London King's Cross to Edinburgh Waverley on May 1, 1928. I was wondering what the exact consist of carriages were on that trip, or if that info has been lost to the sands of time.

jwealleans
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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by jwealleans » Mon May 02, 2016 7:00 am

I think Michael Harris gives the official set makeup in at least one of his books as there were dedicated sets for the working. Whether there were any failures on the day and substitute vehicles added may be something which was not recorded.

65447
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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by 65447 » Mon May 02, 2016 5:56 pm

At that time the stock generally comprised new carriages entering service on 1st October 1924. The next replacement sets did not enter service until July 1928, after the inaugural 'non-stop' run. In all there were six sets (not consists) numbered 1-6 and allocated to the down and up workings of the 'Flying Scotsman', the relief 'Scotsman' and the after-lunch workings between London and Edinburgh ('afternoon Scotsman').

Those sets had been, as was the practice, through workshops for overhaul, repairs, renovations and modifications during the winter preceding the inaugural 'non-stop' run.

Unless a copy of the STN or similar gives the actual composition and 'class' - equivalent to running number - of that particular working, or it was recorded by an observer, then it could be any one of the sets, although more likely set 1 or 2 in the circumstances.

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by JASd17 » Mon May 02, 2016 11:56 pm

65447 wrote:In all there were six sets (not consists)
At last something "60117 Bois Roussel" and "65447" can agree on. Do not use the word 'consist'. Could it be an LNER 'Wrightism'?

I believe the 1928 Non-stop was the only one that started with the spring timetable change, i.e. from 1 May, before the abrupt end of the non-stop in 1939? Was the LNER Board's hand forced slightly in 1928, after the LMS one-off?

John

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by 2745CaptainCuttle » Tue May 03, 2016 6:20 am

I wasn't aware that the coaches for the Flying Scotsman Express were all part of a set. Sorry for the incorrect term usage. I assume that these LNER carriages were specially set aside for this service, sort of like some Pullman coaches are part of a set.

I heard in a documentary somewhere that there was an incident during the May 1, 1928 non-stop run where one of the axle boxes on 4472's brand new corridor tender overheated. The crew was able to cool the axle box using the slacker pipe and continue the run without stopping.

My main query was what that set pulled on May 1, 1928 consisted of. For example: BG FO FK CK etc.

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by 2745CaptainCuttle » Tue May 03, 2016 6:25 am

JASd17 wrote:I believe the 1928 Non-stop was the only one that started with the spring timetable change, i.e. from 1 May, before the abrupt end of the non-stop in 1939? Was the LNER Board's hand forced slightly in 1928, after the LMS one-off?

John
I heard that the LMS non-stop stunt was done to upstage the LNER. The way I heard it, the LMS saw that the LNER was going to make their flagship express a non-stop service so the LMS did their non-stop run as a petty stunt the day before. I think that this is one of the reasons why Mallard's 125.88mph run was kept such a secret until the day it was attempted.

65447
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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by 65447 » Tue May 03, 2016 6:57 am

It's quite difficult to identify the actual types of carriage on a given day. The report in the June 1928 LNER Magazine lists the locomotive crews rostered for the service and their regular locomotives but says very little about the coaching stock.

The LNER's own publication describing the history of the 'Flying Scotsman' train service mentions the special stock including the hairdressing saloons, later cocktail lounge and the specially-commissioned interiors of the two restaurant car triplet sets but not the details nor the specific dates that they were in service.

Similarly omitting such details is Yeadon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines' Part One which, incidentally, includes a photograph of the up 'non-stop' on 12th May 1928 having two clerestory-roofed 12-wheelers as the 3rd and 4th carriages.

And it's also important to remember that there were TWO 'non-stop' workings that day and every day, each departing at 10 o'clock from Edinburgh and London. It is reputed to be the 'up' working from Edinburgh that first carried the headboard 'FLYING SCOTSMAN'.

FAS Brown does list the carriages in 'Nigel Gresley - Locomotive Engineer' but his description has inconsistencies with other sources.

All this does is prove how difficult it can be to accurately describe passenger train formations other than in general terms or on a given day - but then only if someone bothered to record the actual numbers, position in the train and orientation!

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by jwealleans » Tue May 03, 2016 9:02 am

position in the train and orientation
(my bold)

Bit of a deviation but by the later 1930s the sets were instructed to be marshalled so the compartment windows faced the coast so passengers could best enjoy the views once north of Newcastle (Harris). Was this instruction in place for the start of the non-stop, did it precede it or was it instituted after it started running?

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by 65447 » Tue May 03, 2016 9:12 am

jwealleans wrote:
position in the train and orientation
(my bold)

Bit of a deviation but by the later 1930s the sets were instructed to be marshalled so the compartment windows faced the coast so passengers could best enjoy the views once north of Newcastle (Harris). Was this instruction in place for the start of the non-stop, did it precede it or was it instituted after it started running?
In the 1930s, after the introduction (yet again) of new stock. 'Orientation' also implies which end relative to the engine the passenger accommodation was in a brake, locker, semi open or composite carriage etc.

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by JASd17 » Tue May 03, 2016 12:41 pm

2745CaptainCuttle wrote:
JASd17 wrote:I believe the 1928 Non-stop was the only one that started with the spring timetable change, i.e. from 1 May, before the abrupt end of the non-stop in 1939? Was the LNER Board's hand forced slightly in 1928, after the LMS one-off?

John
I heard that the LMS non-stop stunt was done to upstage the LNER. The way I heard it, the LMS saw that the LNER was going to make their flagship express a non-stop service so the LMS did their non-stop run as a petty stunt the day before. I think that this is one of the reasons why Mallard's 125.88mph run was kept such a secret until the day it was attempted.
2745CaptainCuttle, I am sure you are correct, the LMS trip was a 'spoiler', and that the LNER always intended starting the non-stop service with the introduction of the Spring Timetable 1928.

John

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by Dave » Tue May 03, 2016 2:49 pm

Further to jwealleans comment that the compartment windows faced the coast, the 1938 Scotsman (carriage) GA drawings (for the 1939 service) I have, all say South End noted on the drawings, so the orientation of the carriage must have been thought of at the design stage.

Most other vestibule carriage GA's usually refer to the North End only, if it is applicable, this also appears on the relevant underframe drawing for that carriage.

Interestingly 1938 Hook of Holland GA's I have note both North and South ends on the same plan.

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri May 27, 2016 3:25 am

Apropos of this topic generally; were the Flying Scotsman (express) coaches ALWAYS LNER Teak as somebody once told me?

I have just finished (less than an hour ago!) fixing Flying Scotsman roof nameboards to 7 Hornby LNER Teak coaches, my reference being Yealdon's 'Named Trains on LNER Lines Part 1'. Being black and white photos the clarity is not 100% and it does seem to me there are some variations in the coaches shown on some of the different Flying Scotsman expresses featured.

(I have mine behind A4 Falcon/4484 with the full black smokebox and buffer mounted express loco nameboard, as shown on p31 but this example is one of only 3 or 4 with light coloured coach roofs, the rest being generally darker. Despite this I hope my rendition is reasonably accurate).

Graeme Leary

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by jwealleans » Fri May 27, 2016 8:51 am

Under the LNER and before the war, the carriages for the Flying Scotsman were a dedicated set usually built specifically for the service. The Carriage Working documents from the time specify the individual numbers of the carriages to be used. These would have been relatively new and so fairly tidy teak and fully lined. The carriages were withdrawn and taken into works early each year to ensure the set was available and in good condition for the start of the summer timetable.

That's not to say that there weren't substitutions, there clearly were, but for a prestige service like the non-stop the substitutes would also have been the best available. No grubby brown pre grouping non-corridors here. The 10 o'clock had been running since the 1850s, so there were several generations of previous sets available if individual carriages had to be replaced temporarily.

The last new set before the War had steel BGs, finished in a mock teak paint job. After the War the new Thompson carriages were also finished in the scumbled teak paint scheme although I couldn't be absolutely certain that no wartime/austerity brown carriages were used.

For your period, though, clean and tidy teak. Underframes and roofs are a different matter - roofs went grey in a few weeks and black within months as the paint reacted with pollutants in the atmosphere and underframes weren't cleaned.

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by earlswood nob » Fri May 27, 2016 10:21 am

Good morning all

Another point to consider is that the Flying Scotsman train had the triplet restaurant car.

The 1928 version was modelled by Ian Kirk, but the 1938 set had a longer kitchen car, which I've never seen modelled.

JW mentioned an interesting point; that the 1938 set had steel BGs.

Earlswood nob

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Re: Flying Scotsman Express Consist Circa 1928

Post by jwealleans » Fri May 27, 2016 10:31 am

You'll find the 1938 triplet on Grantham, should you manage to see it.

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