The rise of the 4-6-0 and why were there none on the GNR

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GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Re: The rise of the 4-6-0 and why were there none on the GNR

Post by Nova » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:47 pm

Hatfield Shed wrote:It's all in his 'La Locomotive a Vapeur', ideal holiday reading should you be made to lie on some vile beach far from home.
are there any copies translated to English? I sense that given the title of the book and his ethnicity it will be in French
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905

36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947

Hatfield Shed
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Re: The rise of the 4-6-0 and why were there none on the GNR

Post by Hatfield Shed » Tue Feb 21, 2017 10:41 am

Full English translation available by George Carpenter, but still titled in French. The 2nd edition contains material from Chapelon's followers.
ISBN 0 9536523 0 0

john coffin
NER C7 4-4-2
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Re: The rise of the 4-6-0 and why were there none on the GNR

Post by john coffin » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:00 pm

In reorganising my work space and library, I have started to re-read books that I have had for years, read and forgotten the contents of. In relation to this topic, I have read 3 specific authors, who for my generation have differing reputations for their ability and their contact with many of the protagonists of steam railways during the 20th century.

Ossie Nock is in many ways the Barbara Cartland of the railway writers, in that he produced prodigious articles and books, but many question his accuracy. Hamilton Ellis, was an artist, and had a different view on things, whilst we have discussed H.A.V Bullied here before. Each has his skill and value, and whilst we have modern detail, theirs in in many ways contemporary.

Firstly a quote from Nock, pre grouping railway scenes 2, Great Northern, chap 4.
“at first it might have seemed that Ivatt was intent upon changing the GN into a 4-4-0 railway, at any rate so far as main line passenger locomotives were concerned. In the first four years of his regime, no fewer than 76 passenger engines were 4-4-0. While Ivatt will always be remembered as the first British engineer to introduce the Atlantic type for main line passenger work, it was not until 1900 that a further batch were built to join pioneer engine 990…………..Although the Ivatt engines all had domed boilers the proportions of those boilers differed in other respects from those of Stirling. It might be argued that really one was not comparing like for like in that one class was a 2-4-0 and the other 4-4-9. But the interesting point follows that after production of his first passenger engine the 4-4-0 no 400, Ivatt built another series of four wheel coupled engines that were otherwise identical but having 2-4-0 wheel arrangement.”

Next a comment from Ellis, “Henry Ivatt was a conservative engineer, and liked to test his locomotives,”

Finally some thoughts gleaned from Bullied’s book on J. Aspinall, but not the exact words.
“ Aspinall, Ivatt and Worsdell were good friends having worked together at Crewe, whilst the first two ran Inchicore where they followed McConnell who had introduced the 4-4-0 there, and the swing link bogie.

“in 1898, each of the three built a large locomotive, the first two Atlantics, the latter, a 4-6-0.
The first two were pretty successful, whilst the Worsdell S class was a troublesome locomotive, so much that the NER, a much richer railway, than either the contemporary GNR or L&Y made more use of its R class 4-4-0’s on the main line expresses, particularly those going up to Scotland.”

My view, after digesting all this data is that the conservative man Ivatt saw what had happened to the Worsdell locos, and felt it was better to evolve his successful small Atlantic into the larger one. We all know that the last small Atlantics had frames suitable to take a larger boiler, but it was not necessary because of the success of the large Atlantics, and then of course Ivatt retired at age 60, leaving future evolutions to Gresley.

Interestingly, it took the NER a considerable time to build Atlantics, after being the first UK railway to introduce Passenger 4-6-0’s, and rather like the GCR under Robinson, 4-6-0’s did not seem to be answer that everybody thought they might be.


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