What diagrams are these wagons?

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Nova
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by Nova » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:49 pm

I'm currently going through preserved LNER wagons to make as kits when I stumbled upon the following by accident, however it doesn't state what Diagram they are
Image
http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=9817

Image
http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=6409

Image
http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=8062

Image
http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=6660

Image
http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... ?Ref=12550
any help as to placing the specific types would be greatly appreciated :D
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947

65447
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by 65447 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:01 pm

1. The Brake Van is not to an accurate LNER diagram but has been modified during subsequent ownership and, possibly, preservation. Note that the VCT data panel records its sale. The original would have been a Toad 'B' brake van to Diagram 34, built Doncaster 1929, but would almost certainly have had full-height timber end stanchions or, by that date, possibly angle iron stanchions, and certainly more handrails. Do not use this photograph as the basis for a model;
2. LNER 12/13 Ton Single Bolster to Diagram 197, built Shildon 1947/48;
3. Departmental conversion of a 5-plank 12 Ton Pipe Wagon. The VCT data panel suggests an original number that would place it to Diagram 103, built Dukinfield 1936;
4. The overpainting in Private Owner livery is deceiving as is the VCT data panel description 'mineral wagon' and neither does it show any indication of an end door that would make it a 'tippler'. A steel underframe dates it to later in the LNER period, a 6 plank 10' wheelbase merchandise wagon probably to Diagram 185;
5. Difficult to comment on this one. The VCT data panel states 'flat wagon', which it may be now, but it appears to have been a high-sided merchandise wagon originally, note the cut-off end angle iron stanchions, the ends of the side curb rails and the recess over the headstock where the end planks would rise.

Nova
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by Nova » Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:42 am

65447 wrote:1. The Brake Van is not to an accurate LNER diagram but has been modified during subsequent ownership and, possibly, preservation. Note that the VCT data panel records its sale. The original would have been a Toad 'B' brake van to Diagram 34, built Doncaster 1929, but would almost certainly have had full-height timber end stanchions or, by that date, possibly angle iron stanchions, and certainly more handrails. Do not use this photograph as the basis for a model;
I'll definitely keep that in mind, interestingly there's another Toad B located at the Electric Railway Museum, Coventry

Image
http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=8900

that has has metal duckets rather than wooden ones but is listed as the diagram you mentioned,a sign of alteration in preservation perhaps?

so I may have to visit both and create a composite reference, getting references of the most original aspects of both. or make two versions if it turns out they had both types (or four in the case of angle iron end-stanchions

2. LNER 12/13 Ton Single Bolster to Diagram 197, built Shildon 1947/48;
duly noted, thanks :D
3. Departmental conversion of a 5-plank 12 Ton Pipe Wagon. The VCT data panel suggests an original number that would place it to Diagram 103, built Dukinfield 1936;
already have a 103 on the list of wagons to research, but I'll still look into it as a potential variation to do :D
4. The overpainting in Private Owner livery is deceiving as is the VCT data panel description 'mineral wagon' and neither does it show any indication of an end door that would make it a 'tippler'. A steel underframe dates it to later in the LNER period, a 6 plank 10' wheelbase merchandise wagon probably to Diagram 185;
same as with 3, already got one of those noted down. in this instance it can be disregarded.
5. Difficult to comment on this one. The VCT data panel states 'flat wagon', which it may be now, but it appears to have been a high-sided merchandise wagon originally, note the cut-off end angle iron stanchions, the ends of the side curb rails and the recess over the headstock where the end planks would rise.
I'll stick this one on the backburner and look further into it if I ever find myself in the area.


many thanks for the help
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947

65447
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by 65447 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 9:54 am

Nova wrote:I'll definitely keep that in mind, interestingly there's another Toad B located at the Electric Railway Museum, Coventry

Image
http://www.ws.vintagecarriagestrust.org ... p?Ref=8900

that has has metal duckets rather than wooden ones but is listed as the diagram you mentioned,a sign of alteration in preservation perhaps?

so I may have to visit both and create a composite reference, getting references of the most original aspects of both. or make two versions if it turns out they had both types (or four in the case of angle iron end-stanchions
That's another hybrid and not necessarily what it might appear - according to Tatlow/LNER Wagons Volume 4B the number stated in the VCT data panel belongs to a Toad 'D' - the express brake van with the extended flat end platforms! The brake van in the photograph clearly is not that type but the VCT data panel also notes it is to Diagram 34, which is entirely plausible.

The Toad 'B' and Toad 'E' were very similar, the latter being an evolution of the former and all being derived from the NER V4. The 'B' in general had the timber end stanchions as in the photograph and the timber duckets as in the previous photograph. The 'D' had angle stanchions and steel duckets. In the crossover period, c1930, some 'B' vans were built with steel duckets whilst still having timber stanchions and this is probably one of those; although there were later rebuilds that replaced rotted timber duckets with the steel versions the infill boarding was usual obvious whereas in this instance it is not.

If you are this keen then it might be worthwhile investing in the set of Tatlow's LNER Wagons - at least volumes 4A and 4B dealing with those of LNER origin, published by Wild Swan, or his earlier single-volume Illustrated History of LNER Wagons.

Nova
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by Nova » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:56 pm

65447 wrote: If you are this keen then it might be worthwhile investing in the set of Tatlow's LNER Wagons - at least volumes 4A and 4B dealing with those of LNER origin, published by Wild Swan, or his earlier single-volume Illustrated History of LNER Wagons.

I'll definitely try to remember that

just for clarification, the Toad at the ERM is more accurate to a Toad B overall but the rebuilt one at the KESR has the correct duckets for an original Toad B, yes?

additionally there's a brake van listed as a Toad B located at Monkwearmouth station museum, again how does it look to your more educated eye
Image

if it's one of the original condition T-Bs i may disregard the KESR one and examine the ERM one to release as a later variant of Toad B
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947

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tomburnham
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by tomburnham » Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:14 pm

The brake van on display at Monkwearmouth Station Museum is a North Eastern Railway V4 10-ton Goods Brake Van built at Shildon Wagon Works in 1916. The later LNER Toad 'B' and Toad 'E' vans were a development of this design.

65447
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by 65447 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:06 pm

tomburnham wrote:The brake van on display at Monkwearmouth Station Museum is a North Eastern Railway V4 10-ton Goods Brake Van built at Shildon Wagon Works in 1916. The later LNER Toad 'B' and Toad 'E' vans were a development of this design.
And if the running number is correct allocated to West Hartlepool. However for a V4 shouldn't the lamp be positioned centrally above the sidecote/ducket, and presumably the curved end washer plates (strapping) are a later addition by way of repair/strengthening? The short grab handles below the main ones are also a later addition, similarly applied to the various Toads.

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 10:06 am

I would heed 65547's advice about the books if I were you. I'm sure that obtaining the relevant Tatlow book, even if it is only an old copy of the basic "whole of LNER" book written many years ago rather than one of the recent and far more detailed sectional volumes, will provide a far clearer starting point for understanding the brake vans as the book will show the standard forms of these vans, as built. Attempting to grasp what the surviving, repaired, rebuilt or opportunistically modified vans do or do not represent is likely to be very difficult and confusing without good knowledge of the original configurations.
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Nova
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by Nova » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:10 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:I would heed 65547's advice about the books if I were you. I'm sure that obtaining the relevant Tatlow book, even if it is only an old copy of the basic "whole of LNER" book written many years ago rather than one of the recent and far more detailed sectional volumes, will provide a far clearer starting point for understanding the brake vans as the book will show the standard forms of these vans, as built. Attempting to grasp what the surviving, repaired, rebuilt or opportunistically modified vans do or do not represent is likely to be very difficult and confusing without good knowledge of the original configurations.
I do intend to obtain the books, don't worry. my birthday is coming up soon so guess what I've requested :D

but I currently don't have the books. hence why I asked this forum for assistance.
Coalby and Marblethorpe, my vision of an un-nationalised Great Britain in the 50s and 60s: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11905


36C Studeos, kits in 4MM scale: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11947

nutford
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by nutford » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:06 pm

65447 wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2017 10:06 pm
tomburnham wrote:The brake van on display at Monkwearmouth Station Museum is a North Eastern Railway V4 10-ton Goods Brake Van built at Shildon Wagon Works in 1916. The later LNER Toad 'B' and Toad 'E' vans were a development of this design.
However for a V4 shouldn't the lamp be positioned centrally above the sidecote/ducket, and presumably the curved end washer plates (strapping) are a later addition by way of repair/strengthening? The short grab handles below the main ones are also a later addition, similarly applied to the various Toads.
Spot on. But according to the instructions on the kit for the NER V4 by Dan Pinnock at D&S Models (who is generally I think very highly regarded for his accuracy and knowledge) the light position and small grab handles were NER additions on later vans, not instigated by the LNER - though maybe I guess retro-fitted by them on other vans. Peter Tatlow's book shows two, both with the later light position, one with grab handles and one without. But since both seem to be pictured in LNER days those pics aren't conclusive either way. Dan may be able to confirm the basis of his drawings.

65447
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Re: What diagrams are these wagons?

Post by 65447 » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:31 am

All very interesting but potentially irrelevant to Nova in terms of potential kit production, with Parkside kits now available in 4mm and 7mm and Hornby's OO RTR versions reaching the shops...

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