B17 Wartime Black - 'Splasher nameplates

[Graeme Leary]

Happy New Year all.
If I have interpreted it correctly I note in Green Book 2B (p109) that B17s, when painted in unlined Black from November 1941 on, the brass half-footballs were retained (assume this is on the splasher names plates) but the club 'colour panels were PAINTED OVER'.
Should I also assume all the club colours depicted on the 1/2 footballs (ie under the club/loco name plate),were painted in a single colour, common to all B17s - most likely Black I guess when painting the locos, or was some hint of the original club colour retained? I am repainting in Wartime Black (with NE on the tender) a B17 Arsenal/2848 which had a red 1/2 football so it's the colour that the red would have become is what I'd like to find out. (Some die-hard club supporters must have gnashed their teeth when this happened and their club's distinctive colours disappeared!)
Graeme Leary
New Zealand

[65447]

Yeadon and Swinger state that the colours were 'blacked out' during wartime and Yeadon Volume 5 and Swinger's Power of the B17s and B2s include photographs that bear this out. It's more than likely that the footballs would similarly be 'blacked out', or at least allowed to tarnish so that they did not reflect light.

Where did you get the information that on 'Arsenal' the footballs were painted half-red?

[Graeme Leary]

Many thanks 65447.

In Green Book 2B (page 109 under 'Liveries' heading) it says ' The brass half-footballs were retained throughout, although the club colour panels were painted over' (and restored from 1950 onwards) and I appreciate confirmation they were 'blacked out' - makes sense after all to do it when painting the loco Black. I would concur re tarnishing but probably just the brass which would have done this anyway due to I presume, lack of regular maintenance during wartime.

Regarding the 1/2 red 'half- footballs, I might have given the wrong impressions as my rather old Hornby model has vertical stripes under the brass curved name Red/Black/Red which is what I presume is the 'half-football' description as this is roughly the shape. However I have to concede my model may have already gone through a renaming/renumbering process as 2848/Arsenal is hand-written on the old style Hornby box, but also in 2B (p112) it notes Arsenal's colours as Red (only) - no mention of Black so maybe an earlier renaming had it wrong. All will be irrelevant once the loco is redone in NE Black and the colour/s painted Black to match the loco.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

Graeme

[giner]

In a topic I recently posted under this section of the forum: 'Footballers - a nice article', once you scroll past the football/Arsenal stuff, there's the article from the Railway Magazine.

A colourised depiction of 'Arsenal' does indeed show the colours on the splasher as red and black. Odd that, since the football club's colours are red and white. I wonder why.

[Kestrel]

There was a time when Arsenal wore black shorts for away matches. Could that be a reason?

[Graeme Leary]

Re the 1/2 football, another extract from the Green Book - this time Part 1 'Preliminary Survey' (p54). 2nd paragraph carries on saying 'Curved nameplates of the usual style were used but under them was an 8 1/2 inch metal replica of half a football flanked by enamelled plates depicting the club's colours' and it seems according to giner and Kestrel's postings there may have been some confusion somewhere by someone regarding colours for the lower part of the nameplate. Maybe a league follower rather than football had something to do with it. Will have a look at the article you mention too giner - thanks for the reference.

Also of interest to me (as repainting my old LNER green Arsenal into Wartime Black ties in with renaming/renumbering a new Hornby B17 Kilverstone Hall to Huddersfield Town/2853 - grandfather's home town) and again according to Part 1 is that both of these loco names came out of the works with the other's name ie 2848 was ex works as Arsenal (the model I have) and then was allotted Huddersfield Town; and Huddersfield Town ex works became Arsenal/2853. There were quite a few like changes but a coincidence as the 2 names I'm working on were the only ones reversed. All to do with FA Cup semifinalists apparently.

Graeme

[Graeme Leary]

Further to earlier postings I have just received the 'splasher' name plates (for renaming/renumbering Kilverston Hall to Huddersfield Town) from Fox Transfers which also included 2 shed plates, I presume for the cab sides. However, on no photos I have (mainly in RCTS Part 2B) can I see any sign of shed plates on any of the B17 locos shown in the LNER era. Could anybody please confirm that these were in fact fixed to the locos (or anywhere else for that matter).
Graeme

[giner]

There was a time when Arsenal wore black shorts for away matches. Could that be a reason?

I did a bit of digging on this and found on Wikipedia the following sentence:
"For many years Arsenal's away colours were white shirts and either black or white shorts. In the 1969–70 season, Arsenal introduced an away kit of yellow shirts with blue shorts."

I thought I might have remembered that since I've followed the club from well before 1969.

Anyway, it still doesn't fully explain the red and black on the B17's splashers. Must be the old "artistic licence". Doesn't help much does it, Graeme.

[Graeme Leary]

Thanks giner - but will leave my B17 Arsenal as is - ie the red/black detail on the name plate.
But, does your Wikipedia delving (or any other sources for that matter) extend to the appearance on the cab - or maybe elsewhere - of the shed name plate as supplied with Fox's pair of Huddersfield Town name plates. Not sure whether or not to fix these to my renamed/numbered model (ex Kilverston Hall) and if so, where on the loco.
Graeme

[giner]

Sorry Graeme, no joy in that department.

[Graeme Leary]

Good evening giner (almost midday here). Thanks for reply but very reliable sources here (an ex Kittybrewster plus others shed manager) who, even though before his time, says he's sure that the cab side shed plates were an LMS feature' and that LNER had the shed name painted on the buffer beam. Good enough for me - I'll see if my hand can remain steady enough (and eyes can pick out the fine detail) to paint the beams with the shed name.
Graeme

[giner]

Hi Graeme. I just had a 'duh' moment. For some reason, I was thinking works plates, not shed plates. Indeed, shed names were painted on front buffer beams, but what the protocol was for this practice I don't know. I've seen photos of locos, some with the shed name and the class applied, and some without - even within members of the same class. Someone on here will surely have some insight on this.
Best, Giner

[silverfox]

Graeme
shed plates in BR days were on the smokebox door.
The worksplates were fitted on the front splasher on the 'Football' series and on the middle splasher on the others
Beware however that the original worksplate had the LNER no cast into in.In BR dys this was ground out and a plate showing the BR number put in its place.
I have a pic somewhere??? of 2830 plate and had my done by Diane Carney to show the same..Will put up a pics of those if you need them

Ron