LNER ash wagons

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ColHut
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LNER ash wagons

Post by ColHut » Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:13 pm

I am wondering if the LNER or any of its constituents used or built a wagon specifically for carrying off the ash for disposal? I am guessing they just loaded up one of their loco coal wagons, but I would appreciate any input on this.

regards

Tony west
LNER N2 0-6-2T
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by Tony west » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:01 pm

I have a drawing by Guy Hemingway that was a record of a wagon seen in the 1920's. It was an old ex MS&L / GC 3 plk fixed side open and was lettered, Loco ash only
Empty to Gorton running shed
Hope this is of some use to you .
Cheers Tony.

john coffin
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by john coffin » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:55 pm

In the early days, and in some places up until around the beginning of the 20th century, the GNR used ash as ballast, so it is likely that they would have used ballast 3 plank wagons, but none of my documentation shows a specific ash wagon.

it is certain that there was a system in place to move ash and clinker from all the GNR loco yards and depots when the ashpans were cleaned out and fires dropped since other wise they would have been overwhelmed with this material. One would have thought that this item could well have been used in gas plants and later in coal fired power stations, but what else is open to consideration.

I cannot imagine that normal coal wagons would have been used since the ash might well have contaminated them and since I do not remember coal wagons being cleaned very often it seems unlikely that they would risk it.

One also wonders whether it was used in land fill, or as some may know for instance that Sudbury Hill in West London was built from spoil from the Piccadilly Line in Central London, so it may well have been used in construction too. Also, it could have been used in sea defences and as a base for
come concrete products.

Wonder whether any of our ex Drivers or Firemen have any idea what might have happened.

Paul

john coffin
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by john coffin » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:14 pm

Light bulb moment,
when I was younger, post second world war, a new kind of building material was used to allow the amount of housing that was necessary then to be built, and that was cinder blocks. Anyone in an early 50's block of flats will be aware of the black stuff they drill into
particularly around windows for putting up curtains, or putting up shelves.

They were a precursor to present day "breeze" blocks.

So I assume there was a production line somewhere, and traffic went to those depots.

Paul

Hatfield Shed
LNER P2 2-8-2
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by Hatfield Shed » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:05 pm

In appendix four of Tatlow vol 1 'LNER Service Vehicles - Southern area, 31 December 1940'; there is a section Coal, coke, ash and sand wagons.

No specific ash wagon is listed, only loco coal and sand wagons. This suggests to me that there may once have been such purposely produced ash wagons, but no more by this date.

There was still a telegraphic code 'BLUE' for ash or rubbish wagons, (sides at least 2 feet high) and one suspects these will have been suitable types withdrawn from revenue service until too broken down even for service use?

By BR operation, it is entirely clear that regular mineral wagons were loaded with ash and clinker from the running sheds. In connection with the Kings Cross group of sheds, this waste went for many years to tips in the worked out clay pits in the Peterborough area, seen references to a 'Conington' or similar destination.

I'd never say never about the recycling of the ash and clinker, but have been told that the cinder block, later breeze block, construction material was specifically produced from power station ash, available in both large quantity and in a very uniform grade.

john coffin
GNR C1 4-4-2
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by john coffin » Mon Feb 20, 2017 12:32 pm

Connington is indeed one site where ash was dumped, and where indeed T1002 was found in a field during the 60's.

Whilst Modern clinker blocks may have been made from power station ash, in the early post war period there were few of them, so who
knows, until a builder or engineer can let us know, Hatfield may well be right.

Paul

Dave
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by Dave » Mon Feb 20, 2017 3:57 pm

The modern concrete block is based on a mix by Joseph Aspidin in 1827
and modified over the years, it consisted of powdered limestone, clay
and water.
Early 20th century blocks were made from cement and local aggregates,
usually waste products, cinders from gasworks, coke ovens, blast furnace slag.
Nowadays dense aggregate blocks are made from cement, sand, aggregates (various).
Light weight blocks use cement and expanded aggregates, which can be expanded clay,
pulverised fuel ash, furnace bottom ash, expanded shale, pumice, foamed/granulated
blast furnace slag.
Aerated blocks like Thermolite use cement, lime, sand, pulverised fuel ash and
aluminium sulphate powder. The mix is heated and the aluminium reacts with the lime
and forms hydrogen bubbles, it's then cut to size and cured in an autoclave.

I doubt railway ash was used too inconsistent in size and quality.

52H
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by 52H » Mon Feb 20, 2017 4:49 pm

Hi all
At Pelton level shed(1 engine.) when the ash wagon was full we sent it to Etherly tip near Bishop Aukland. We just used any wagon that was handy, usually an empty loco coal wagon.

52H

Trestrol
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by Trestrol » Mon Feb 20, 2017 5:12 pm

52H wrote:Hi all
At Pelton level shed(1 engine.) when the ash wagon was full we sent it to Etherly tip near Bishop Aukland. We just used any wagon that was handy, usually an empty loco coal wagon.

52H
I remember all our rubbish from the S&T stores going to Etherly tip in 1988/89. Our rubbish went by road to TCFD Gateshead and dumped in a rail wagon to go to the tip. No worries about sorting waste for recycling it all went in. With the exception of scrap metal and cable which went in skips.

john coffin
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by john coffin » Mon Feb 20, 2017 9:15 pm

Thanks for the data Dave, useful to know from an expert.

Where or where is Etherley

john coffin
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by john coffin » Mon Feb 20, 2017 10:26 pm

A quick check of GN sheds Vol 1 actually covers the fact that ash was transshipped to Connington but does not really explain what happened there.

Some other uses it suggests were light track ballasting, and use in cold weather.

Paul

AndyG
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by AndyG » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:26 am

OT
john coffin wrote:... or as some may know for instance that Sudbury Hill in West London was built from spoil from the Piccadilly Line in Central London
Do you have a reference for that?

I've lived adjacent to Sudbury Hill for 35 years and never been aware that it was anything other than a natural hill.

A quick Googling didn't find anything other than a link to this thread.

Andy

AndyG
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Location: Northolt,Middlesex

Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by AndyG » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:29 am

john coffin wrote:Where or where is Etherley
It was on the Weardale line west of Bishop Auckland at NZ174304.

Andy

john coffin
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by john coffin » Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:17 pm

Hi Andy
cannot remember which of my many books provided the data, but I have known about this for longer than you have lived near Sudbury Hill :roll:

The early underground railways were built by the cut and cover method, and produced vast amounts of spoil which could not go back in the hole,
so it had to be moved, and the logic was to take it toward the end of the line. It may well be that the whole of Sudbury Hill was not built from this,
but I am pretty sure that much of the area around the western end of the Piccadilly station was built up, otherwise I think there would be a viaduct all the way from Sudbury Hill to almost Rayners Lane. Rather than just the one from South Harrow to Rayners Lane.

It will take me a bit of time to re-find the data but will also check some other sources to reinforce my suggestion.

Paul

ColHut
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Re: LNER ash wagons

Post by ColHut » Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:33 pm

Thankyou all for your contributions. I wonder if there are any period photos of LNER wagons loaded with Ash which might provide a clue.

I can imagine that if you had a particular need you might fill ballast wagons, perhaps for ballasting a yard or other lightly laid line. I will look again though the GNR engine shed books but I do not recall seeing anything obvious there.

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