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Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:15 pm
by 65447
As a rule of thumb the earlier carriage underframes with the Queen post and rod trussing to stiffen them were provided with 4 sets of trusses if vestibuled and 2 sets if non-vestibuled, save for the early steel-panelled carriages which had none.

However the articulated stock with the longer than standard spacing between bogies, and in particular the GN Quads and GE Quins which were heavily loaded (even overloaded) at peak times, probably required 4 sets of trusses rather than 2.

Is there any definitive information available regarding the actual numbers of truss rods fitted to particular carriage types?

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:39 pm
by JASd17
I cannot give definitive information 65447.

But study the top photo on page 138 of LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. It seems to show an extra truss rod down the centre of the carriages in this GE Quad set.

Others seem to suggest more than 2 truss rods, but I am not certain of how many, 3 sets or 4?

Also see here:

http://www.nnrailway.co.uk/graphics/sto ... turn_4.JPG

This makes me lean towards 3-sets.


John

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 4:26 pm
by 65447
Thanks John.

Looking at the upper photograph on p138 of Harris' Standard Gresley Carriages, Mallard, of a GE Quad set that also appears to have 3 sets. Since this was comprised of longer carriages it would be reasonable to assume that the GE Quins had 3 sets as well.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 9:53 pm
by swhite01
I have photographed Doncaster Drg 2887N 43' 41/2" Steel Underframe for Inner bodies of Quadruple Carriages. (The drawing quotes 3172N as the Inner truss rod diagram). 2887N shows the positions for 4 trussrods and the associated queen posts.

Hope this helps,

Steve

www.gnrsociety.com

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 10:07 pm
by jwealleans
I wouldn't like to speculate as to how representative it is, but the revised trussing for the two dining cars in the Leeds Quint (for which I have photographed the drawing) only has two sets of trussrods.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 8:56 am
by JASd17
It appears certain diagrams had different underframe details in that case.

John

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:04 am
by John Palmer
Possibly also worth a look is Plate 124 of Michael Harris' GNR and ECJS Carriages from 1905 (pub. Oakwood Press), showing a GNR Quad set rebuilt to Diag. 467 from twins by Cravens. On the Third nearest the camera it's possible to discern what seems to be a central truss rod. However, I have difficulty in making out the alignment of this central rod - it seems to pitch downwards at a steeper angle than the outboard trusses, but this may be an optical illusion.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:58 am
by Dave
65447.
Interesting question and looking forward to the answer.
I've looked through my underframe drawings and I don't have any for turnbuckle articulated stock, which is remiss of me.
What I have which does not answer your question but may be of interest is -
57'-0" u/f 2 queen posts (1912)
60'-0" u/f 4 queen posts
Triplet outer elect cooking 4 queen posts (1927)
Triplet inner " " 4 queen posts (1927)
51'-0" U/f non vest 2 queen posts (1924)

Dave

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 10:01 am
by billbedford
JASd17 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 2:39 pm
I cannot give definitive information 65447.

But study the top photo on page 138 of LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. It seems to show an extra truss rod down the centre of the carriages in this GE Quad set.

Others seem to suggest more than 2 truss rods, but I am not certain of how many, 3 sets or 4?
There would be 4 sets of truss rods, because there were two inner longitudinals, as well as solebars, where the truss rods were attached to he frames.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 12:27 pm
by John Palmer
billbedford wrote:
Wed May 03, 2017 10:01 am
JASd17 wrote:
Tue May 02, 2017 2:39 pm
I cannot give definitive information 65447.

But study the top photo on page 138 of LNER Standard Gresley Carriages. It seems to show an extra truss rod down the centre of the carriages in this GE Quad set.

Others seem to suggest more than 2 truss rods, but I am not certain of how many, 3 sets or 4?
There would be 4 sets of truss rods, because there were two inner longitudinals, as well as solebars, where the truss rods were attached to he frames.
My first thoughts were much the same as Bill's, but the picture referred to in LNER Standard Gresley Carriages caused me to have doubts. At page 142 of David Wragg's LNER Handbook there is a clear sideways-on shot of a quad-art on which I can see only three queen posts side by side, again suggesting a three-truss arrangement. I can't see any reason in principle why there could not be a single longitudinal frame member along the vehicle's centre line, or a closely spaced pair of such members with a truss rod sandwiched between them.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Wed May 03, 2017 9:05 pm
by JASd17
Perhaps a 'centre' truss was off-set on one or other of the inner frames?

Clearly, I am not certain on this. But surely this is possible to resolve in time. Hi Dave!

John

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 8:19 am
by 65447
Thank you all for your contributions to date; I asked the question simply because in all of the information available very little attention is paid to the underframes and to all the bits that hang from them. Even Norman Newsome's technical paper delivered to the Inst. Loco. E includes a non-vestibuled angle truss underframe GA for the later and slightly longer Thompson carriages, erroneously repeated by Michael Harris in his two books on the subject.

I look forward to an erudite and, hopefully, conclusive discussion on the topic.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:15 am
by jwealleans
Juts for completeness, does anyone else have a copy of the underframe drawing Mike Trice used to make available? I do, if I can locate it and from memory it's for the standard 61'6" vestibuled stock. What i can't remember is whether it's welded or turnbuckle.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:33 am
by Dave
JW.
Mikes drawing is of a turnbuckle underframe, and very good it is too.

JASd17, I too wonder how a centre truss would work, I'm sure I've seen a drawing but did not take any details at the time and can't remember how it worked.

Re: Carriage Underframe Trussing

Posted: Thu May 04, 2017 9:55 am
by earlswood nob
Good morning all

The Isinglass drawings of the LNER Quint shows 4 truss rods on all carriages with different height queen posts on the end units.

Earlswood nob