Early S&D 4-4-0s

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kudu
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Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by kudu » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:15 am

The first Stockton & Darlington 4-4-0s (or anywhere else, come to that) were two built for the Stainmore line in 1860, with 6ft 1.5in driving wheels. But I'm interested in the four that followed in 1861. These had 7ft 0.5in wheels and weatherboards rather than the roomy cabs of the first two. Both types came from Stephenson's. Can anyone shed light on what duties the 1861 locos were intended for? It's hard to believe either of these changes were made if they were also meant for the Stainmore route. William Bouch was in charge, and I imagine he knew what he was doing.

Thanks for any light that can be shed.

Kudu

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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by 52D » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:25 pm

Hi Kudu im presuming you mean 162/63/64/65 Saltburn, Morecambe, Belfast & Keswick i have just had a look in Baxters but the only hint towards the Stainmore route is the naming of the last three with a western bias. Baxter states weatherboard only but gives no other hints on their useage.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by JonR » Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:05 pm

Hi Kudu

Yes they were designed for working the stainmore route and eden valley line. It was surprising that Bouch increased the wheel size, but it seemed to work out ok as it was worked by 901s and 1463s until the late 20s, both with 7' drivers. The spacious cabs that were fitted to Brougham and Lowther also didn't make an appearance as the men didn't like them as they thought it made them look soft.
JR

kudu
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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by kudu » Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:36 pm

Many thanks for this information, JonR - most interesting. I'd appreciate your source, if you can remember it. Seems the choice of wheel size remains a mystery, but at least I now know where they worked.

I'm writing an article for my local railway society journal on 4-4-0s - part of a series I'm doing on the loco stock in the Grouping (nothing ambitious - there were only 24,000). I'm incorporating a brief history of the 4-4-0.

Sorry for slight delay in responding, btw.

Kudu

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tomburnham
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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by tomburnham » Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:59 pm

Hi Kudu,

For the definitive history of S&D locomotives you should try and beg, steal or borrow a copy of 'The Locomotives of the Stockton and Darlington Railway' by T R Pearce published by the Historical Model Railway Society. The first 4-4-0 on the Stockton And Darlington was a locomotive built for the Ottoman Line (Smyrna to Aidin) by Robert Stephenson & Co. which was offered for trial before being delivered to the purchaser. Suitably impressed, Bouch placed an order for two similar locomotives. The book refers to a statement by Ken Hoole, the well respected historian of railways in North East England, that Bouch obtained approval for six such engines, four for the South Durham and Lancashire Union Railway (Stainmore line) and two for the Eden Valley Railway. He says also that of the original order for fifteen engines for the Ottoman line, only ten were confirmed, and of these only six were actually exported, but that the others were sold to the London, Chatham and Dover Railway.
There are photographs of Brougham and Keswick taken at Alpha Place in Saltburn so the implication is that the locomotives were also used on the recently opened Saltburn extension of the Stockton And Darlington as well as the Stainmore and Eden Valley lines. Another photograph exists of Morecambe in a distinctly rural location.

Tom.
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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by JonR » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:56 pm

Hi Kudu,

I can second Tom Burnhams recommendation for Tom Pearce's book, also a useful reference is the stainmore railway by Ken Hoole, Nera's volume 3 of the North Eastern Record and Hoole's illustrated history of north eastern railway locomotives. There's a picture inof Pearce of the Stephenson locomotive on loan to the S&DR at Shildon, close to where Locomotion is today.
JR

kudu
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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by kudu » Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:20 am

Thanks for the extra information and the photos. Those original 4-4-0s had a decidedly foreign look, and it's interesting to note the origin of the design. And so typical that innovation by our manufacturers was for export before being adopted by our own railways. I shall amend my draft article.

But I'm puzzled by Ken Hoole's apparent reference to sales to the London Chatham & Dover Rly. There is no mention of these in the RCTS Bradley book on LCDR locos, which instead refers to four 4-4-0s built by Hawthorns for "a South American railway". They didn't even have weatherboards, by the way.

Kudu

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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by Rlangham » Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:47 pm

JonR wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:05 pm
The spacious cabs that were fitted to Brougham and Lowther also didn't make an appearance as the men didn't like them as they thought it made them look soft.
I'd heard this before, does anyone have a source for this? It's not overly surprising (similar thing with cockpits on military aircraft - pilots didn't like the enclosed feeling on the glazed cockpit introduced on the first SE5 scout aircraft so it was discarded, and fully enclosed glazed cockpits didn't appear on fighter aircraft until the Gloster Gladiator of the 1930's) but interesting that the large, spacious cabs of the NER tender locomotives appear a lot more comfortable than that offered by most other railways for many years, apparently owing to the Quaker beliefs of the two Worsdells
Author of 'The North Eastern Railway in the First World War' - now available in paperback!

http://www.amazon.co.uk/North-Eastern-R ... 781554552/

Happy to help with anything relating to the railways in the First World War, just ask

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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by JonR » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:48 pm

Hi Rob,
It's repeated in a number of sources including Pearce & Hoole. I don't know what their original source was.
JR

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Re: Early S&D 4-4-0s

Post by JonR » Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:52 pm

Rlangham wrote:
Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:47 pm
interesting that the large, spacious cabs of the NER tender locomotives appear a lot more comfortable than that offered by most other railways for many years, apparently owing to the Quaker beliefs of the two Worsdells
I bet they had a few taunts from the LNWR men, their company was certainly not noted for their belief in crew comfort. Compare Hardwick's cab with the J21 or the D17 at Shildon for example.
JR

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