Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

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Graeme Leary
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Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by Graeme Leary » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:49 am

My last (hopefully) for 2017.

Were corridors always positioned to one side of a train? My instinct suggests that there may have been some accepted pattern, such as the compartment side of a coach would always be where the most stops on any given 'journey' were alongside platforms so the platform would be the most accessible for passengers boarding or leaving compartments (and tough luck for opposite stops where there would be passengers 'massing' at each end waiting to get on/off) - but I could well be miles out.

Maybe it was just how a coach came out of the works, luck of the draw!

Graeme
New Zealand

drmditch
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by drmditch » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:19 am

I think I have read that ECML services tried to ensure that, since the best views are looking to the east, (York Minster, Durham Cathedral, superb coastal views north of Morpeth) the corridor side was on the west. Also, 1st class (if possible) would at the south end, so as to give less walking distance at Kings Cross.

Certainly I always try to book a seat on the eastern side when travelling from home (Durham) to Edinburgh. At this time of year the dawn over Berwick can be magnificent - or just very bleak and dreary!

A couple of years ago, going north, we were stopped at Tweedmouth, and coming south over the Royal Border Bridge was No.7. (Just before her current re-build started.) Absolutely marvellous! Certainly the eastern side, facing north, was where to sit that day!

Now I must try and look up the reference! But if I'm wrong someone on here is sure to tell me!
Last edited by drmditch on Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

jwealleans
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by jwealleans » Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:23 am

There is an explicit written instruction to that effect for the Flying Scotsman sets (Harris quotes it in Standard LNER Gresley Carriages. I haven't seen it stated as strongly anywhere else.

Dave
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by Dave » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:47 pm

Quite a few Carriage GA's have north and south ends annotated which suggests that was the intended orientation when marshalled in the train.
Examples - 1st class restaurant car (triplet) of 1923 has south noted on the vestibule end.
Semi open 1st class of 1927 states north on the vestibule end which shows the corridor on the right.
If all that makes sense with out the drawings.
There are lots more examples of this

jwealleans
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by jwealleans » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:12 pm

Opens and Restaurant Cars would have to be marshalled such that they were adjacent to an appropriate vehicle (e.g. a triplet would have the first class end adjacent to first class accommodation, which would usually be at the 'town' (south) end of the train, so closest to the buffers at KX. A semi-open first would be used as an overflow dining car, so the open end would be next to the Restaurant or Kitchen car. As these are all open vehicles, the orientation with regard to the view is unimportant.

65447
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by 65447 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:21 pm

Brake vehicles were also built left-handed and right-handed, when considering the position of the brake van section relative to the side corridor.

Only specific ECML prestige sets as already mentioned were deliberately ordered with the compartments to the east side but sets would be assembled in a specific order for named and other regular services and those who did so may well have attempted something similar. Other vehicles, such as observation cars, had to be uncoupled and turned for each trip. A quintuplet, triplet or other made-up restaurant car set would need to be turned on a triangle if for some reason its direction had been reversed and in some instances whole sets were turned.

Graeme Leary
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:07 am

Forming a train for the 'view' from a particular side makes sense and certainly the eastwards East coast views you mention drmditch were worth exploiting. (I've only even seen them from the road driving North - occasionally south - on the B1339/B1340 and on the A1, and on one delightful visit being part of them on a trip to the Farne Islands).

Regarding the 1st class cars being positioned at the south end, I see in Steve Bank's LNER Passenger Trains and Formations on 1936 and 1938 Flying Scotsman formations, he has a FK next to a 3rd TK and then the BG, which I presume means a slightly longer walk for the 1st class passengers on arrival/departure at/from Kings Cross but I'm sure an extra carriage length walk was well within the capabilities of these exalted travellers.

All other points noted too, many thanks all.

Graeme

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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by 65447 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:30 pm

Graeme Leary wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:07 am
Regarding the 1st class cars being positioned at the south end, I see in Steve Bank's LNER Passenger Trains and Formations on 1936 and 1938 Flying Scotsman formations, he has a FK next to a 3rd TK and then the BG, which I presume means a slightly longer walk for the 1st class passengers on arrival/departure at/from Kings Cross but I'm sure an extra carriage length walk was well within the capabilities of these exalted travellers.
The BG was to carry the luggage and parcels for particular stops but I cannot explain the reason that the Third is next to it on the Down working.

The LNER continued East Coast and pre-Grouping practice by having trains made up of portions. An 'Edinburgh' train would likely have a portion to go on up to Aberdeen and another across to Glasgow. When it came to the sleepers, carriages would be divided to continue to several end points. A train would either be divided by the front portion being removed or the tail portion remaining behind; that explains the apparent breach of First Class nearest London rule and you may see it applied within the portions. The Flying Scotsman only had a portion for and from Aberdeen.

JASd17
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by JASd17 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:00 pm

That third class carriage in the 'first class end' of the Down Flying Scotsman was there from at least 1932 in the summer working.

The winter formation would contain more portions, as there were fewer relief trains. For instance in the Spring 1935 Timetable through carriages are shown for Glasgow and Perth, in addition to Aberdeen.

John

Graeme Leary
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by Graeme Leary » Fri Dec 22, 2017 8:53 pm

The 2 Flying Scotsman examples I quote from LNER Passenger Trains and Formations are divided into Aberdeen (3 cars Down and just 2 Up) and 6 up/down to from/Edinburgh for 1936 and in 1938 7 Edinburgh and 3 Aberdeen.

I presume these were the daytime runnings as no mention of Sleeping Cars but Yeadon's LNER Named Trains (Part 1) suggests to me that Sleeping Cars may have been more or less confined to the Night Scotsman. A lot of detail concerning locos working both the F.lying Scotsman and Night Scotsman in Yeadons Part 1 but no info that I can see on car formations on either express.

The 'portions' 65447 mentions are interesting to me as in both years quoted there were only 2 Up (or 3 or 4 Down) to/from Aberdeen - hardly too demanding work for a huge Pacific that it, or one of its sisters, may have worked 8 - 10 cars from London in those 2 years which I'm concentrating on. (In Steve Bank's tome there is even a 1924 photo of a 12 coach FS express behind 1471/Sir Frederick Banbury and this comprised portions' for Glasgow & Perth as well as Edinburgh & Aberdeen).

(And all this started so I could get more or less correct a typical running of the Flying Scotsman on my layout running in the 'Up' direction).

Thanks all and any more info will be really soaked up.

Graeme

JASd17
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by JASd17 » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:39 pm

Graeme,

Happy to give an Up version of the '10 o'clock', which timetable; winter/spring or summer?

If you want summer, Banks & Carter does it.

The other issue is, exactly which dates you are thinking of. For your West Riding Pullman set you wanted late 1920s, is it the same for the Up Scotsman?

I am still looking for an exact set for the West Riding at that date.

John

Graeme Leary
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by Graeme Leary » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:22 am

Hello John,

My WRP is based on a 7 car set dated June 1928 details of which the Pullman Society sent me without any further date/time or up/down info. (There were also 2 other sets for May 1926 and August 1927 but these were 8 cars and for the simple reason my station can accommodate the loco and 7 cars comfortably I chose the June 1928 set - rather 'prosaic' - is that the word? - but suits my purpose closely enough. (My skills do not extend to sending the Pullman Society archive article via the Forum - even though they certainly encourage it - but there is a reference indicated which is headed 'Pullman Car Services - Archive - The West Riding Pullman - Issue 1 - October 2017' and there are 5 pages total. It has just occurred to me I might just have your email address from some much earlier correspondence and I will track that down and send to you).

Regarding the Flying Scotsman; I am working on the 1928 Up Summer 'roster' outlined on p31 Banks and Carter - at first glance that too looks like a 7 car set but with the Restaurant Triplet the number is obviously 9 - a squeeze at my main station but some modeller's license will be employed.

So 1928 is the year that indirectly I have settled on.

Graeme

JASd17
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by JASd17 » Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:36 pm

Thank you for the email Graeme.

I think you are fine with a 7-Car West Riding Pullman set, my understanding is that 7 was more usual than 8 Cars, certainly later on.

With your Scotsman set, remember that in 1928 the underframes will all be queen-post types. I have sent a suggestion for a reduced set to compliment your layout restrictions. Even layouts like 'Grantham, the streamliner years' had to compromise with the length of sets.

John

Graeme Leary
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by Graeme Leary » Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:24 am

Thank you for your posting John, that is a 'relief' re the WRP and my Hornby 3rd class Brake Car No 95 model is now renamed CAMBRIA, (as in the Pullman Society details sent) and looking quite good behind the other 6 cars with a C1 working the set.
(Hopefully a photo to you in due course).

Re the Flying Scotsman - reduced set details received but the term 'Queen Post style' underframes is new to me. I am currently looking at Jenkinson and Campling's 'Historic Drawings' and trying to identify if Queen Post style may be one of those illustrated. My (older) Hornby model teak cars have underframes that most closely resemble the drawings on p58 & p60 but there is not a lot of detail in the underframes drawings. However, within the 'it's my railway' scenario do these Hornby models 'comply' to a satisfactory degree?

However I can see quite a bit more license will be required when I come to complete my Comet Models 'sides only' kit for the Restaurant Triplet as in 'Historic Drawings' the kitchen car appears (to me anyway) as having no angled 'brace pieces' but just carried on full length horizontal (and no doubt, cross braced) beams. Quite feasible I imagine as it is noticeably shorter (41') than the restaurant cars (42' 1") and the 'full length' cars at 60'/61' +) which do have this angled 'bracing' drawn. (Maybe the articulation spreads the weight and less angled bracing is required). Any thoughts on this too would be very welcome.

Graeme

MikeTrice
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Re: Corridor coaches (direction on tracks)

Post by MikeTrice » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:04 pm

The correct term is "Truss posts" as shown here:
IMG_9685.JPG
Note the round trusses which can be tightened with turnbuckles. The later steel angle underframes came in after 1931.

All three cars of the early triplets has round trusses with turnbuckles and truss posts, they are simply omitted from the drawings on one side of the vehicles.

Some images of the triplets here: http://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-an ... iplet-sets

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