The LNER Encyclopedia

65447 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:13 pm

jwealleans wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:15 am Hence my question - it doesn't appear on some of the vehicles on page 1 of this thread. I only saw this this morning so I haven't had time to look through the pictures I have, but I thought it was a question worth asking.

It's a good question JW and worthy of asking.

Initial conclusions re the rainwater downpipes based on limited evidence (e.g. page 1 of this thread) and Sawdust's information:

1. None on Gresley coaching stock, so a post-war introduction;

2. A substantial proportion of the post-war vestibule compartment stock together with the non-vestibuled stock do not have doors at the ends so the feature not deemed necessary for 'passenger protection';

3. That leaves the post-war open stock and catering and sleeping cars that are most likely to have doors at the end and the most appropriate subjects for checking and a quick flip through photographs to hand tends to confirm that, evident on the early batch of vestibule open thirds, although the sleeping car images in Harris are too dark to see the end detail!

1. Sorry but definitely not a post war introduction. Restored carriages often lost the rainwater down pipes during departmental usage. Also the zinc chute to take the water from the wooden gutter round a near 90°bend is a masterpiece of the sheetmetalworker's craft. If you don't have those or a pot full of money, or a tame sheetmetalworker you are unlikely to bother putting them back on your restored carriage.

2. Downpipes only occur with a door at the end so a standard Gresley buffet will have downpipes at the saloon end but not the kitchen end.

3. Based on Mike's information I would hazard that Thompson vehicles with round window corners were less likely to have them fitted, while square cornered ones would have them fitted if they had a door at the end. They were probably deemed unnecessary from a particular order of vehicles onwards. It is possible that drawings might exist in the Met Canm archive that have them crossed out and noted "not needed for order xxxx", as had been observed on details included on Gresley drawings from there.

I hope this helps to clarify things a little

Oh there is one type of Gresley with doors at the end that doesn't have rainwater downpipes but then they didn't have gutters.....

Sawdust.

Following up my own post, what s terrible habit!

On looking at the pantry 3rd photo Mike helpfully posted again it occurs to me that the door closest to the camera, whilst near the end is neither hung from or shutting against the corner pillar and it is that which dictates the need for downpipes or not.

Cheerio

Sawdust.

As a result of Sawdust's reply I have spent more time looking more closely at photographs in e.g. the various Harris books. Many of these are square-on side views which reveal nothing, the others are of course monochrome and quite often the ends that you really want to see are not only painted black but in shadow. There are not so many passenger-carrying carriage types that have doors at the extreme ends either, the LNER management being stuck to the compartment concept. Finally the vertical beading on the ends helps to disguise any other small vertical elements.

But I think I can now confirm that GN and ECJS stock having a door at the end pillar were not fitted, even if lacking the end windows, so it was an LNER introduction (from when?) and it's just possible to make out the hoppers and downpipes on those that fit the door location criteria.

Of the photographs taken in BR days, it does seem that BR was not too bothered about maintaining them and so they may well have disappeared even before any transfer to departmental use or disposal to preservation.

This has been an interesting and informative discourse, proving that there is always something more to be learnt.

I had a quick flick through the part of the Seabrook photo collection I have last night and the only definite example I found was an end door First. It has turnbuckle trussing but was photographed in BR days, of course, so the possibility exists that it was altered. It had the fitting at both ends, not just the end where the door was hung on the en dpost.

Strangely I was doing a sketch of the hopper from a drawing I have the other night, to put on the end of a TTO.
I can't find the drawing now but will keep looking. The drawing says it's for doors next to the corner post which makes sence. If the window was open water would piss in as it would be very close to the rain strip end. I have a feeling the drawing was from the early 30's. The 2 pictures 65447 posted are correct and both carriages will have the hopper, in the photo of E1345 the left hand end will not have the hopper as the door is not at the corner post but inset. The door on the right past the toilet will have a hopper as it is next to the corner post. The picture Mike Trice posted shows a teak with the hopper abit in preservation days. I will keep looking for the drawing it's most annoying I can't find it.

Right I have found the drawing it's a Doncaster drawing - LNER Drwg 4755N DOWN PIPE TO CARRY WATER FROM WEATHER STRIPS. All stock with passenger door next to corner pillar to be fitted 1933. I was supprised I rememberd it was early 30's.

Whilst looking for something else this afternoon I came across several pictures in British Railway Carriages of the 20th Century by David Jenkinson.
Page 63 - 48 seat open 3rd 21308 built 1934, hoppers.
Page 71 - Corridor comp 32386 new in 1937, hoppers.
Page 88 - Comp sleeper 10207j built 1925, hoppers.

So not a post war addition but in use from 1925 at least, and probabily earlier.

Works photographs of the 'Flying Scotsman' Buffet Lounge Cars - E1706 in simulated teak and E1705 in crimson and cream - show that both lack the hopper and downpipe at the end with the door adjacent to the corner pillar...

65447 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:06 am Works photographs of the 'Flying Scotsman' Buffet Lounge Cars - E1706 in simulated teak and E1705 in crimson and cream - show that both lack the hopper and downpipe at the end with the door adjacent to the corner pillar...

No point in setting rules, if you're not going to break them!

Sawdust.

sawdust wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:33 pm

65447 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:06 am Works photographs of the 'Flying Scotsman' Buffet Lounge Cars - E1706 in simulated teak and E1705 in crimson and cream - show that both lack the hopper and downpipe at the end with the door adjacent to the corner pillar...

No point in setting rules, if you're not going to break them!

Sawdust.

Rather facile and uninformative - I'm disappointed Sawdust.

The photographs on Steve Banks' website of the First Open dining cars, built for the same train at the same time, show that these were fitted with the hopper and downpipe: https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-a ... ining-cars so why one type and not the other - both being notionally not for the standard passenger complement but for catering and with some being built with square-cornered and others with round-cornered windows?

Steve White has kindly sent some more pictures for this thread, taken on the SVR in 2018:

Thanks Steve and Jonathan

65447 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:34 pm

sawdust wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 1:33 pm

65447 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:06 am Works photographs of the 'Flying Scotsman' Buffet Lounge Cars - E1706 in simulated teak and E1705 in crimson and cream - show that both lack the hopper and downpipe at the end with the door adjacent to the corner pillar...

No point in setting rules, if you're not going to break them!

Sawdust.

Rather facile and uninformative - I'm disappointed Sawdust.

The photographs on Steve Banks' website of the First Open dining cars, built for the same train at the same time, show that these were fitted with the hopper and downpipe: https://www.steve-banks.org/prototype-a ... ining-cars so why one type and not the other - both being notionally not for the standard passenger complement but for catering and with some being built with square-cornered and others with round-cornered windows?

Sorry I missed this until just now. Designs were constantly being revised. The change to round cornered windows also saw many other changes. Often these were made with the benefit of experience. Early build Thompson carriages have the pillars for the elliptical windows the size of the window plus an inch and a quarter apart. This made the elliptical framing very thin at the sides. The latter carriages have these pillars an extra two inches apart, which makes it easier to produce the elliptical framing as it is no thinner than an inch. Also early vehicles the waist batten is rectangular in section which causes condensation to stand on top of the rail against the steel panel. Later vehicles this batten has a beveled top which when assembled is horizontal, so condensation is not trapped against the steel panel. It's almost like having mk2a and mk2b and so on.
I hope this helps.

Sawdust.