GNR saloon #46

This forum is for the discussion of the locomotives, motive power, and rolling stock of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard, Tom F

Post Reply
User avatar
Cutter
LNER N2 0-6-2T
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:39 pm
Location: Massachusetts

GNR saloon #46

Post by Cutter » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:19 pm

Hello,

I am planning to model the Northern Belle in N gauge, and have so far been unable to find any information about the carriage that contained the writing and smoking rooms. This was evidently the old Great Northern Railway saloon number 46, but what was this vehicle? Did it have a GNR or LNER diagram number, and does anyone know of an N/2mm scale model of it, or something similar? I have RTR items, Bill Bedford etches, and Etched Pixels conversion sides to represent most other carriages in this fascinating train reasonably well.

john coffin
GNR C1 4-4-2
Posts: 744
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:24 am

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by john coffin » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:35 pm

Do you know whether or not it was a bogie carriage?

If you can confirm the wheels, then I may well be able to offer details of the type, but it is unlikely that at this time
anyone does one in 4mm let alone N gauge

Paul

User avatar
Cutter
LNER N2 0-6-2T
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:39 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by Cutter » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:55 pm

I am pretty certain that it was a bogie carriage.

JASd17
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
Posts: 1107
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:21 pm

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by JASd17 » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:19 pm

If it is in the Northern Belle formation it is a bogie vehicle.

I shall have a look at what I have.

John

Seagull
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Between a cheap railway station and a ploughed field

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by Seagull » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:38 pm

This vehicle was rostered in the Northern Belle formation in 1934 and also in 1939. I guess it was rostered in the years in between but I have no proof of that.

It was digram GN 45C shown in the Issinglass catalogue as drawing 168 Gresley GNR 52' 6" First cl saloon. I can confirm it was a bogie carriage.

I have seen two or three pictures showing the inside of this carriage during the 1933 or 1934 'cruise' of the Northern Belle and the layout in the pictures matches what is shown in the Issinglass drawing.
External pictures are rare though I think there maybe one in Great Northern Railway and East Coast Joint Stock Carriages from 1905, by Michael Harris, but I am away at the moment and don't have the book with me.

So far as I know this was a one-off carriage and I don't know of any models of it in any scale.


Alan
Playing trains, but trying to get serious

John Palmer
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:27 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by John Palmer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:18 pm

The illustrations in Michael Harris' 'GN and ECJS Carriages' all appear to be of diagram GN 45D vehicles - similar but different. Harris notes that the sole diagram 45C vehicle was included in the formation of George V's funeral train. That brought to mind a scrap book compiled by my late uncle (who spent time in the employment of the GWR before emigrating and working for a spell with Uganda Railways). Tracking this down, I found it contained the attached shot, which I believe to be of the train in question en route to Windsor. If so, the 4th vehicle should be the saloon in question, although little in the way of detail can be picked up at this distance in a half tone image.
George V Funeral Train Extract.jpg
(I've edited down the image to show the relevant part whilst keeping the image size within permitted limits)

John Palmer
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:27 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by John Palmer » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:30 pm

Since the Diag. 45C saloon was also employed in the formation of George VI's funeral train, I have been able to track down a much better image of it at https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j ... 5729451994

User avatar
Cutter
LNER N2 0-6-2T
Posts: 58
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:39 pm
Location: Massachusetts

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by Cutter » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:31 am

This is all great information and extremely useful. Bill Bedford has a 2mm scale etched brass model in his catalog and I'll see if he can make me one--i think he still does one batch of 2mm etches each year. The only view of this carriage's interior that I've seen is the 1930s cigarette card depicting the writing room (attached). I really appreciate the help!
Attachments
northernbelle.jpg

2512silverfox

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by 2512silverfox » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:46 am

This may help.

Original GN Diagram 45C showing No 6, later to become No 46. Originally built as a 'family' saloon with 1st and third accommodation and a central saloon.

There is a photo of the saloon as prepared for the funeral train which was taken at Stratford at the time of the facelift, but I cannot lay my hands on it at present. No building photo was taken at Doncaster.

Nick Campling
D45cy.jpg

2512silverfox

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by 2512silverfox » Wed Mar 28, 2018 4:48 pm

I have checked my photos and attach a building photo of GNR No 6. My mistake, it is from Doncaster Negative M17 but not too clear I am afraid.

Nick Campling
GNR#6.jpg

John Palmer
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 216
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 7:27 pm
Location: Somerset

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by John Palmer » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:02 pm

Footage of George V's and George VI's funeral trains, including shots of this attractive saloon, can be found at http://www.eafa.org.uk/catalogue/674.

The only insignia apparent on the saloon in its funeral livery appears to be the rhomboidal panel bearing a somewhat indistinct coat of arms. Perhaps this was because the application of the black livery must have been a 'rush job'. In the case of George VI's funeral train, I believe the King died on 5 February and was conveyed from Wolferton to London for the lying in state on 11 February, during which interval all arrangements for the saloon's repainting had to be put into effect, including sufficient drying time before the train's departure to Norfolk.

The Ogden's cigarette card showing the interior seems to have been derived from the photograph in 'GN and ECJS Carriages'.

JonBates
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:48 am
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: GNR saloon #46

Post by JonBates » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:07 am

I too am planning to model the (Day portion) of the Northern Belle. Mine will be in 4mm though. I have just seen these posts and they are extremely helpful - this saloon seems to have been a bit camera shy!
So a big thank you to all for the information.
Jon

Post Reply