4472 livery question, late 30's

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greenglade
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:57 pm

Evening all

I have a question that I'm struggling to get an answer to, I have searched all of my reference books and online sources but so far have failed so hoping someone here may have the relevant information.

My question relates to the wheels, I know that 4472 had polished rims for the Wembley exhibition 1924/25 and that she kept these for some considerable time after. I'm trying to determine when 4472's wheels were actually painted and to what extent? In preservation, from Pegler onwards, while in LNER livery she had lined wheels with the black band and smaller white line between black and green. I have not found any images of her with this during her LNER days. Now according to the livery sheet from Precision paints, up until she was painted wartime black, she had polished rims with a white line around the inner rim...I'm not convinced about this hence my question. I have seen a picture (IIRC 1936) where it looks like she has polished rims and another (1938) where they look painted but not lined black ( I have failed to find an image of 4472 prior to preservation which shows her with fully lined wheels?)...it's impossible to see if there's a fine white line there or not.

So guys is there anyone out there who knows the answer to my question and if so could you please direct me to the source...

kind regards

Pete

JASd17
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by JASd17 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:57 pm

I cannot answer your question.

Make of the attached what you may.
LNER A1 4472 Sparshatt and Webster.jpg
John

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greenglade
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:10 pm

Thanks, JASd17...yes I am aware of this picture, IIRC it's early 30's, perhaps 34 after the 100mph run...I could be wrong.... it does show one thing though and that's that there's no white line at this point in time..so the polished rim meets the green spokes with no lining between. I just need to find out when this changed or to be precise how were her wheels painted in 1939?

cheers

Pete

JASd17
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by JASd17 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:36 am

Pete,

The photo is probably mid 1930s, I think Sparshatt retired circa 1936.

Not sure it is exactly to do with the 1934 run with 4472 because the light looks a bit strong for November.

I have seen a picture confirming the polished wheel rims in 1935.


John

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greenglade
GER D14 4-4-0 'Claud Hamilton'
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:54 am

Hi John

Yes I've seen the 1935 picture, think it was in 'Yeadens' there are a number of '34' pictures after the 100mph run...I think tbe one you posted is too but stand to be corrected if I have this wrong. I have seen another photo from 38 that could be polished rims gone dirty or unlined paint. This has thrown a curve ball at me as I had always assumed that 4472 had been fully lined in the late 30's as Pegler painted her in 63....I'm beginning to think this is incorrect....I'm currently painting my 5" model wheels hence the question. Over all the years of researching and building this model a lot of my impressions of how 4472 looked in the late 30's have changed...always learning something new....:)

Regards

Pete

JASd17
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by JASd17 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:58 pm

Hi Pete,

When the polished rims on 4472 disappeared is an interesting question. They were unique to that loco, as I understand it (?).

I shall keep looking. A late 1930s exhibition shot anyone?

John

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greenglade
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:41 pm

perhaps not John...I have seen other pacifics with no black/white on the wheel rims...I've just been informed that 'Cock of the North' (1934) had no wheel lining including no white line and thus I will use this to confirm that there was no white lining as suggested in the Precision paints livery sheets for 4472 1946.
I'm nearly there in deciding that I need to remove the green from the rims which I've already painted..a simple job once set up on the lathe....

here's a picture of the wheels so far...even with no black/white lining on the rims I'll still need to apply it to the axle ends...

Image

cheers

Pete

AdamOrmorod4468
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by AdamOrmorod4468 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:45 pm

Hi all,

A quick Google brought up the first image on this thread: viewtopic.php?t=11279 ; the tyres look polished to me. Iirc FS received a streamlined non-corridor tender in July 1938, so the photo must be from then or after. It seems unlikely the wheels would be painted over then polished up again so polished wheels is probably right for most of the 1930s.

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greenglade
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:08 am

Ade the Pianist 4468 wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:45 pm
Hi all,

A quick Google brought up the first image on this thread: viewtopic.php?t=11279 ; the tyres look polished to me. Iirc FS received a streamlined non-corridor tender in July 1938, so the photo must be from then or after. It seems unlikely the wheels would be painted over then polished up again so polished wheels is probably right for most of the 1930s.
Yes it going that way....thank you for the reply sir..

regards

Pete

2512silverfox

Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by 2512silverfox » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:39 pm

According to the paint shop foreman (interviewed extensively in 1965) all locos left the plant with their wheels lined in the approved manner and a white line on both rim and boss. In the case of 4472 the wheel rims were polished for the BE Exhibition, but repainted after the next General shopping. Kings Cross cleaned them off again and thus the position was repeated over the years; most photographs showing them polished.

The same or similar process applied to 2001 and 2512, both of which had the wheel rims polished for publicity purposes after entering service (in 2152's case the original rim having been dark grey).

I have always relied on his information since he was working in the paint shop during most of the time in question.

Nick

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greenglade
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:49 pm

Thanks for the info Nick.....I'm going to go with the unpainted polished rims, as you say most...well all photos that I have seen show this but the main reason is the photo of her in 1938 after overhaul and fitted with her new streamlined tender...this photo is only a matter of months before my chosen era and thus unlikely to have changed so soon..

Thank's for the reply though, I rely a lot on ex-railwaymen, they are a wealth of information...I can talk to them for hours...:)

kind regards

Pete

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greenglade
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 am

Hi guys.

A couple of pictures to show that I am progressing...no black/white lining on the axle ends yet as I'm up against the clock but hopefully I'll get this done end of next month...
Image

Image

Thanks for all the help..:)

Pete

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greenglade
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:41 pm

Hi guys

4472 is progressing well but I have yet another livery question....this is in relation to the polished splasher trims...I had assumed that these were polished steel to match all the other polished parts for the 1924/5 exhibitions. however, I recently saw a picture posted that was a photo of an LNER PR card given out at the exhibition. This was an artist's impression so taken lightly but it raised the question as to whether the trims were steel or brass. The artwork shows a gold colour for the trim hence my question. I have already ascertained that the polished trims were still present in 39, I just need to find out their colour? Alas I can't find where I saw this picture to share it.

Anyway here's how things are progressing..this is basically where I am except that I have now finished the weighshaft and expansion links.

Image

Kind regards

Pete

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greenglade
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by greenglade » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:00 pm

Hi guys

I have spent the last few days searching for an answer to my question re the splasher trims, I'm now confident that they were brass and that they were brass beading added to the splasher trim. What I'm looking for now is a high-resolution picture of the loco which shows the splasher trim to be able to see how it was secured...as she kept these throughout her LNER career I guess any picture of her splashers close up may be of use?
Any ideas chaps?

Pete

jwealleans
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Re: 4472 livery question, late 30's

Post by jwealleans » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:09 am

Does it still have them? You could ask the Museum.

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