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Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1938 - coaching stock query

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:16 pm
by Art Dent
Hello folks.

Newbie here - first post.

I have a query regarding the train hauled by Mallard on its record-breaking run in 1938 (date now amended).

I know that the train consisted of the dynamometer car (running immediately behind the loco?) and six (or seven) coaches amounting to 240 tons.

What were the other coaches in the formation?

Were they teak coaches (I believe the Gresley teak coaches were produced from 1938)? I know that they weren't Thompson coaches as he became CME of the LNER upon Gresley's death in 1941.

I have seen a couple of pictures that suggest that Mallard was pulling some blue-liveried coaching stock?

I found this image in Steve Banks' website - http://www.steve-banks.org/images/histo ... 360_72.jpg but the caption on the picture simply says "A4 No 4467 Wild Swan in the 1930s has an up express at an unknown location." As there is no specific date, it doesn't really help much.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Art

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:30 pm
by mick b
Coronation Set without the Observation Car in 1938.

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:01 pm
by JASd17
Art,

Where on earth did you find the 'fact' that Gresley 'coaches' were produced from 1938?

I am serious, anything this incorrect needs expunging from wherever it came.

Gresley was the Great Northern carriage boss from 1905.

https://www.gresley.org/sir-nigel-gresley-1876-1941


The CCQ photo of 4467 is I believe an Up train between Hawkshead bridge and Potters Bar station, just where a water course flows under the formation near Furzefield Wood.


John

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:48 pm
by jwealleans
Right. A number of things to say here. The record was set on July 3rd 1938, not 1936.

The dynamometer car had to be behind the loco as there are instrument connections between the two. The car goes a specific way round as well - I believe the end with the small ducket is closest to the loco.

The rest of the stock was a part Coronation set, but only 6 of the usual 9 vehicles. As Mick has said, the observation car was not included; one other twin was removed. I don't know which one it was, but when I make the train up on Grantham I take the rearmost inner pair out (Cars E & F) to leave the two brake ends present.

To give you an idea, here is a Tony Wright photograph (his copyright, not to be reused please) of the representation of the train we run on Grantham.

Image

You may have picked the 1938 date for Gresley carriages up from the fact that there was a new set of Flying Scotsman stock that year. However as John has said, Gresley was producing carriages for the GNR and then LNER from 1905.

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:55 pm
by john coffin
This subject of Gresley carriages will I know run and run, however.

Gresley was carriage and wagon superintendent for the GNR from 1905-1911, when he became CME, a position he
also took in the newly created LNER in 1923 up to his death in 1941.

Thompson took over as C&W Superintendent in 1911 and left to do war service during the First World War. During that
the war, I have not yet found who was C&W Superintendent during the war years, but of course the CME was in overall charge
of Carriages and many other things. Thompson took over again after the war until he left for a job at the NER before Grouping.
Next was Bullied, who was involved in the first Flying Scotsman train, and much tourist stock. See Brown for more details.
Later came Spencer.

What confuses is that most carriages built after 1905 look similar and thus everybody calls them Gresley carriages.
Personally, I think that much of the stagnation in external design and decoration until the Silver Jubilee and Coronation
was due to the parlous finances of the LNER.

Paul+

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:25 am
by Dave
The earliest Gresley profile drawing that the NRM has is 267N dated 17-06-1905 for No. 2 Rail motor to seat 53 people.
It's noted that it's 3 months after his appointment.

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:39 am
by Hatfield Shed
Regarding the LNER's coach building. Money was always in short supply and the large investment in 'inherited' carriage works equipped for construction of timber coach bodies, pretty much defined what the coach body construction would be. At least they had the steel underframe with the integrated Pullman gangway and knuckle coupler on gangwayed vehicles, superior to the other three group's feeble alternatives; as developed over the previous decades for the ECJS and GNR gangwayed stock.

Gresley was an avid student of all railway practise, and is on record as favouring an all steel coach construction; if only it could be afforded, both in first construction cost and traction provision. I imagine he was a little galled at seeing the 'Queen of Scots' all steel Pullman cars in service on the LNER from 1928, as these were very much the thing, a construction that was a good match for the BR mk1 design of twenty years later...

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:04 pm
by Art Dent
JASd17 wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:01 pm
Art,

Where on earth did you find the 'fact' that Gresley 'coaches' were produced from 1938?

John
I posted that I believed that the Gresley coaches (teak) were produced from 1938 - I don't know where that particular 'nugget' appeared from so my apologies if it is incorrect.
jwealleans wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:48 pm
Right. A number of things to say here. The record was set on July 3rd 1938, not 1936.
My apologies - I knew it was 1938 but then 1936 got into my head somehow (!) Original post title and text within post now amended to 1938.
The dynamometer car had to be behind the loco as there are instrument connections between the two. The car goes a specific way round as well - I believe the end with the small ducket is closest to the loco.
That is very useful info, I didn't know that the dynamometer car faced a particular way round.
The rest of the stock was a part Coronation set, but only 6 of the usual 9 vehicles. As Mick has said, the observation car was not included; one other twin was removed. I don't know which one it was, but when I make the train up on Grantham I take the rearmost inner pair out (Cars E & F) to leave the two brake ends present.

To give you an idea, here is a Tony Wright photograph (his copyright, not to be reused please) of the representation of the train we run on Grantham.

Image

You may have picked the 1938 date for Gresley carriages up from the fact that there was a new set of Flying Scotsman stock that year. However as John has said, Gresley was producing carriages for the GNR and then LNER from 1905.
Thanks. What colours were the coaching stock - was the blue 'Garter Blue' to match the loco - I can't really tell from the useful picture that you posted in your reply. It appears to be darker in the picture than the blue of the loco.

So, am I correct in saying that the coaches in the record-breaking formation were steel-bodied and not teak? It is hard to tell from the old photos - such as this one: http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic ... ecord2.jpg

Were there any more pictures taken of the train at the time (colour or b&w) apart from the loco and driver & fireman (Joe Duddington and Thomas Bray)?

Thanks for all the help/advice and corrections so far.

Regards,

Art

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:35 pm
by sawdust
I don't think there was a desire to invest heavily new what was then largely unproven new technology. There were lots of experiments and small steps in evolution, like the move to all welded underframes and vehicles such as the Alpax carriage. The LNER was also quick to try out materials such as aluminium, stainless steel, Rexine, plywood and acrylic sheet.

By the way I'm writing this in the most apt place possible, now back to some complex curves.

Sawdust.

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1936 - coaching stock query

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:28 am
by 65447
Art Dent wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:04 pm
So, am I correct in saying that the coaches in the record-breaking formation were steel-bodied and not teak? It is hard to tell from the old photos - such as this one: http://album.atomic-systems.com/showPic ... ecord2.jpg
The carriages bodies were steel-panelled on teak framing built on welded steel underframes.

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1938 - coaching stock query

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:28 am
by Art Dent
Thank you once again for the replies.

Still that query regarding livery if anyone can help. Please don't simply say something like Coronation Livery as I don't know what that means (LNER newbie).

Thanks in anticipation,

Art

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1938 - coaching stock query

Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:35 pm
by 65447
Art Dent wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:28 am
Thank you once again for the replies.

Still that query regarding livery if anyone can help. Please don't simply say something like Coronation Livery as I don't know what that means (LNER newbie).

Thanks in anticipation,

Art
The colours used on the carriages were sponsored by the British Colour Council especially to be used in association with the Coronation of King George VI; the two colours used being Marlborough Blue (the lighter) and Garter Blue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Colour_Council

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1938 - coaching stock query

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 12:08 am
by silverfox
I think the Gresley soc has pictures of the train at Barkston before the run. Will try and locate them

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1938 - coaching stock query

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:34 am
by Art Dent
Thank you 65447 (a J15 0-6-0?)and Silverfox.

Art

Re: Mallard Record-Breaking run in July 1938 - coaching stock query

Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:46 am
by 2512silverfox
The attached photo should give you an idea of the livery of the Coronation express.
Van-de-Poll-Coronation-3x.jpg