Info. on Pacifics.

This forum is for the discussion of the locomotives, motive power, and rolling stock of the LNER and its constituent companies.

Moderators: 52D, Rlangham, Atlantic 3279, Blink Bonny, Saint Johnstoun, richard, Tom F

Post Reply
sturrock
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:13 am

Info. on Pacifics.

Post by sturrock » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:21 am

Can anyone help me with some details of both sorts of Bullied's pacifics?

I want to do a comparison with the LNER ones(and the V2).
I have plenty on LNER (Green Books) but for SR stuff I need-

Individual wheel loadings.
Boiler diam.(max and front).
Tube lengths.
Engine only weight.

For fun I am drafting a possible Gresley light pacific (had he lived on) for use on the GE lines, and for general MT duties with a lower axle loading to the V2, similar in power to the later Brittanias.(except with 3 cylinders and derived gear).

Love any info. and imput.

Hatfield Shed
LNER P2 2-8-2
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by Hatfield Shed » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:49 am

You can 'slot in' an A2 mechanism under a V2 body if you want to see what it looks like in model form, or make a drawing collage. It is not quite what a Doncaster light paciific would have looked like, but suggests the appearance very well.

A rummage around on this site may turn up what you need. http://www.semgonline.com/photoind.html#steam

sturrock
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:13 am

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by sturrock » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:16 pm

Thanks HS.
My current great interest is drafting (a la Bird) side elevation drawings of 'what might have been' on the LNER (and constituents before) just to get an idea what they may have looked like.
I try to stick to contemporary standards- fittings, existing boilers, appropriate tenders etc in them- but for my own satisfaction I like to make them more authentic by comparing and calculating contemporary figures- grate areas, tube lengths, boiler diameters, pressures etc (all available per the Green Books).
I've done about thirty odd drawings of considered, rumoured,actual projected, and filled out details in general arrangement drawings.
I've previously forwarded a list of 'locos never built ' on this website before and can post an updated list list with references if anyone is interested.
Having nearly exhausted drawings of my list, I,m now exploring my own projections of locos Gresley may have built with its appropriate rationale.
On the Bullied locos, I guess I'll have to hunt or even buy (shock horror) some SR books!

JonBates
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:48 am
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by JonBates » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:26 pm

Hello
Looking in Haresnape’s Bulleid Locomotives:

Merchant navy
15T 10c on the bogie
21T 0c on the driving wheels
14T 0c on the rear bogie
Engine only weight 92T 10c
Barrel length 16’ 9 5/8”
Front diameter 5’ 9 3/4”
Max diameter 6’ 3 1/2”

West Country
15T 10c
18T 15c
14T 5c
Engine weight 86T 0c
16’ 8 1/8”
5’ 6”
6’ 3 1/2”

All above are for the initial builds

Hope this helps.
Jon

sturrock
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:13 am

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by sturrock » Tue Jul 17, 2018 3:43 pm

Thanks, Jon -just what I needed.
Regards and thanks.

JonBates
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:48 am
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by JonBates » Thu Jul 19, 2018 1:13 pm

Glad to be able to help.

As I was getting this data I began to wonder what big locomotive would Bulleid have designed for the LNER if he had stayed and taken over from Gresley.

Just another possible alternate future!

Jon

sturrock
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:13 am

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by sturrock » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:36 am

Jon -what an intriguing thought!
Bullied was probably involved in some of Gresley's more adventurous schemes -from the Smith compound D47, the "Hush-Hush", other high pressure boilers, poppet valve gear experiments, streamlining steam flow, chimney draughting and he later showed his own "outside the box" thinking with the Q1 ,'Spam Cans' and Leader.
Where might he have gone on the LNER without his boss's restraining influence!

Hatfield Shed
LNER P2 2-8-2
Posts: 940
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:34 pm

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by Hatfield Shed » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:02 am

There was no great need for any large power, the V2 design was a winner, so my suspicion would be the medium power requirement would be first to get tackled, and my guess at the format would be very similar to the Peppercorn K1. This was pretty much the loco Gresley had proposed to the locomotive committee in 1923, that was turned down for what became the J39 0-6-0 on economy grounds. A false economy as the J39s were expensive to maintain when regularly used on faster turns, a 2-6-0 a far better choice and the evidence awas in at the time of Gresley's death. Of course this Bulleid 2-6-0 might have been 'austeritised'.

He's not going to be able to leave the large power alone indefinitely and I suspect the pacifics and P2s would have come in for developments in boilers and valve gear. thermic syphons, further experiments with poppet valves, evaluation of the Le Maitre against the Kylchap exhaust, so rather more modest than the opportunity he had on SR where there was no big engine experience among the design staff and board to restrain his excesses.

drmditch
NER C7 4-4-2
Posts: 860
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 5:55 pm
Location: Durham

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by drmditch » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:54 pm

Re: Early LNER proposal for a 2-6-0

I think the requirement for a 'general purpose' engine that was met by the J39 was initially proposed by Gresley to be a three-cylinder large boiler loco, effectively a smaller wheeled K3.

It was turned down as being too long, too heavy and too expensive.

The Thompson K1/1 and Peppercorn K1 used a 'cut down' B1 boiler (based of course on the B17) and B1 cylinders. These were based on the Gresley K1/K2 cylinders.

The LNER didn't re-invent more than it needed to.

JonBates
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:48 am
Location: North Yorkshire

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by JonBates » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:05 pm

Interesting responses - and I didn’t realise that Gresley had proposed a 2-6-0 instead of the J39. So I’ve learned something.

I think the points made are very logical - but I can’t help thinking that Bulleid would have wanted something that was more dramatic than a 2-6-0. ( I’m not saying it would be better - just different!)

So maybe he would have kept going with the V2 but put on a double chimney ( or Lemaitre).
For a large loco I could see him developing the 4-6-4 or 2-8-2 designs. Totally agree that these would not have been really necessary so would have been small numbers.

For the mid range he might have developed the V4. Thus there would be no B1. This V4 might have received the austerity treatment in order to get produced during the war.
After that I guess that we’d be back to a smaller 2-6-2 (V5?) or 2-6-0 (but with 3 cylinders) for the small to mid range requirement. Unless of course he went for a large tank engine or was able to persuade the LNER board that they needed the Leader!

Anyway it’s interesting sometimes to just let the imagination wander......Now must get back to some model making!

Jon

sturrock
GNR J52 0-6-0T
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:13 am

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by sturrock » Sun Jul 22, 2018 7:01 am

I forgot one Gresley proposal which absolutely smacks of Bullied in retrospect -the V 6 cylinder D49. Have a look at this one on pages 95 on in part 4 Green books !

pete2hogs
LNER Thompson L1 2-6-4T
Posts: 76
Joined: Wed May 14, 2008 10:18 pm
Location: Wales

Re: Info. on Pacifics.

Post by pete2hogs » Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:20 pm

sturrock wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:21 am
Can anyone help me with some details of both sorts of Bullied's pacifics?

I want to do a comparison with the LNER ones(and the V2).
I have plenty on LNER (Green Books) but for SR stuff I need-

Individual wheel loadings.
Boiler diam.(max and front).
Tube lengths.
Engine only weight.

For fun I am drafting a possible Gresley light pacific (had he lived on) for use on the GE lines, and for general MT duties with a lower axle loading to the V2, similar in power to the later Brittanias.(except with 3 cylinders and derived gear).

Love any info. and imput.
Gresley had already produced the answer for the GE - the V4. Look up the tests on the GE. OK, it would have been less visionary than the Britannia revolution 10 years later, but it would still have been a significant improvement at the time.

Bulleid would have used the Kylchap if he had succeeded Gresley - it would have been out of royalties by then.

Post Reply