Coal Wagons on the NER

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Tanya
GNR J52 0-6-0T
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Coal Wagons on the NER

Post by Tanya » Sun Aug 05, 2018 5:37 am

]Sanderson, in his Railway Commercial Practice Vol 2, p16 states that it was under the Rates and Charges Order Confirmation Acts of 1891-2 that the NER had the right to supply waggons for coal class traffic.
Details of these Acts can be found in the volume at the end of this link -
https://archive.org/details/railwayratesand00darlgoog

This book makes no mention of waggons, though. Any ideas where the details of the waggon part of the Act can be found?

Tanya
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drmditch
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Re: Coal Wagons on the NER

Post by drmditch » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:58 pm

If you look in any of the standard works on the NER, and especially 'North Eastern Record Vol2' and Peter Tatlow's 'LNER Wagons Vol2 North Eastern Area' you will find accounts of the range of NER mineral wagons.

The NER did encourage collieries to use railway designed wagons, especially after the introduction of the the large hopper wagons to Diagrams P6 and P7. Wagons had to be matched to loading and unloading facilities. The height of colliery screens and the discharge arrangements (especially at ports) would dictate the kind of wagons used.

john coffin
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Re: Coal Wagons on the NER

Post by john coffin » Mon Aug 06, 2018 4:04 pm

Although the NER did indeed get the right to provide wagons to private mine owners, it was not that easy.

Because many mines in the NER were quite old, they had often sharp curves and narrow clearances making it impossible
for the colliery to use the railway's wagons.

The real problem for the NER seems to have been the bad condition of many of the private mine wagons which meant that
they often delayed or stopped trains and caused expenditure to the railway which was often difficult to recover from the mines.

Paul

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Re: Coal Wagons on the NER

Post by Orkney » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:12 pm

Comments noted and certainly many colliery sidings and the condition of them did cause the NER many headaches. That said the NER set its mind against the use of private owner wagons generally and colliery wagons in particular, very early in its existance. I fear, however, I cannot offer chapter and verse. This is marked contrast to many other companies, eg the GNR and GWR who hauled a considerable amount of coal in private owner wagons. Given that it appears to have been company policy for the NER not to permit the use of the mine owners' wagons on NER rails, they could wave a big stick at the owners in as much that if they wanted their coal transported, then they had to be sure that their sidings came up to scratch! It should also be born in mind that many mine owners had their own rail outlets to shipping points on the Tyne and the Wear in particular. Durham and Northumberland had many such networks. Here they would use their own wagons - latterly many being obtained second hand from the NER. The downside of using NER wagons was the question of demurrage. This did cause the NER and more recently BR, much concern, as there was little incentive to load and unload wagons speedily.

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Re: Coal Wagons on the NER

Post by john coffin » Mon Aug 06, 2018 11:09 pm

Since my normal interest is mainly GNR, I get somewhat confused by the whole NER story, since although it began its
amalgamating in 1853, that continued until 1922 when it absorbed the H&BR. Even the S&D was quite a late addition to the ranks.

I agree that the board of the NER was keen to use its own wagons wherever possible, and did have considerable numbers of wagons
which passed into LNER ownership there were still large numbers of PO wagons around in 1923, and many collieries still had really
tight curves and sidings.

Paul

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billbedford
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Re: Coal Wagons on the NER

Post by billbedford » Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:08 am

Company coal wagons were almost universal in the NER Northern and Central divisions, In the Southern division, almost all the coal waggons were almost all private owner/RCH designs. There were no company owned end door types that could be used in coal hoists in Hull docks.
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drmditch
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Re: Coal Wagons on the NER

Post by drmditch » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:28 am

billbedford wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:08 am
Company coal wagons were almost universal in the NER Northern and Central divisions, In the Southern division, almost all the coal waggons were almost all private owner/RCH designs. There were no company owned end door types that could be used in coal hoists in Hull docks.
According to NER Record Vol2 mentioned above there was a 14 ton wagon to Diagram P11 first constructed in 1905 :-"'having two side, one end and eight bottom doors....... They were used between collieries in Leeds area and Hull docks, at certain of which only end door wagons could be discharged; in the return direction they could carry imported goods from the docks."

There is a picture (dia 2.34). In the 'Diagrams of Wagons' Vol 2 published by NERA there is a dimensioned diagram. Neither of these show much detail of the end door. Peter Tatlow (op.cit.) page 53 states that 376 of these wagons existed as at 31/12/22, but shows no figure for later dates.

The relationship between Hull and the NER was difficult and, I think, very interesting. The rivalry between the North East ports and perceptions of the NER's bias away from Hull would make a good area of study. One of many though! Does anybody know of anything published?

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