B17 Footballers

[silver fox]

Locos in Profile

[Flamingo]

Yes, the picture of 2855 via that link certainly shows the all-red splasher panel. That agrees with Part 2B of the RCTS series but its not as reliable as photographic evidence.

My 1958 picture of 61655 definitely shows a red/white striped panel.

What's the explanation?

[redtoon1892]

This pic of Wilf Mannion may help with Boro colours of the 40s / 50s

[David Dippie]

B17's
1/There is a photo of The Essex Regiment with Newcastle United nameplates at Darlington works when new. It is also shown as The Essex Regiment in an identical photo. Close examination suggests that the Newcastle plates were photographed and super-imposed on the photo.

2/The Middlesbrough nameplate at the ground is a replica. One of the originals is on display near Didcot in a museum

3/Hull City sold the original plate to a collector. They also now display a replica. The other plate is in the Hull transport museum.

4/West Ham, Arsenal, Everton, Sheffield United, Leeds United (Training centre), Tottenham Hotspur (both), Sheffield United, Sheffield Wednesday, Huddersfield Town, Sunderland (museum), Norwich City have original plates on display

[redtoon1892]

Boro's nameplate was clearly visible above the players entrance at the Riverside on Sky today V Man Utd.

[badwolf]

It was common practice for the LNER to swap nameplates for football special trains , i.e. if the correct loco was not available for some reason then the plates would be swapped to another member of the class that would work the train.

[Flamingo]

The North British Loco Group has announced a project to build 2 B17s, one is to be for display purposes only but the second is to be completed as a fully operational working engine for use on preserved railways and main lines (if allowed). Two types of tenders are envisaged: the version used with the original B17s on ex-GER lines and an LNER Group Standard tender for others. This would permit both engines to be shown as either the 'Sandringham' or "Footballer' varieties.

An ambitious scheme certainly but there does seem to be rather a proliferation of new build proposals at present. I wonder if such locomotives can attract enough support to generate the necessary funding. Those of us old enough to remember B17s for real are either of pension age already or getting ever closer to it!

[hq1hitchin]

I wish them well, particularly with getting through the vehicle acceptance process if they are to run on the main lines. When I was working, there was some disquiet at Tornado being accepted, it being considered in some quarters that it should not have 'grandfather rights' as it was a new build, not a restoration and therefore should be judged by the same criteria that would apply to, say, a new design of EMU. Signal sighting from the footplate of a steam locomotive is very poor compared to modern traction, for instance - to say nothing of carrying a boiler full of scalding water and a firebox full of hot coals around the system. At least, that was the way some people looked at it....

[Bill Bedford]

The North British Loco Group has announced a project to build 2 B17s, one is to be for display purposes only but the second is to be completed as a fully operational working engine for use on preserved railways and main lines (if allowed).

I hope they are able to do a better structural analysis of the frames than Gres^H^H^H^H NBR managed.

[sirbrian]

What does Bill Bedford mean by "Gres^H^H^H^H NBR"? I hope that I am not the only one to be baffled by this expression! Please let us know.

I did not consider the B17 to be a good locomotive. They tended to be rough riders. They were the LNER equivalent of the LMS Jubilee, which was also not a good locomotive and another rough rider. Nevertheless, I support the brave souls who hope to build two new B17's because our younger folk can then see more of how things were in the now distant past. The new B 17 can be fitted with an air compressor and be true to prototype, and then be able to operate air-braked trains.

Sir Brian

[richard]

I think that expression refers to the B17s being usually attributed to Gresley, when in reality the North British did much of the design work. Despite the cylinders and firebox, they don't really have much of a Gresley look about them - more of a fore-bear of the Thompson B1 and Peppercorn K1.

They were a bit of a mixed bag which does make it a bit of a strange choice for a new build. Contrasts with the Peppercorn A1s which are generally regarded as great locomotives.


Richard

[Bill Bedford]

What does Bill Bedford mean by "Gres^H^H^H^H NBR"? I hope that I am not the only one to be baffled by this expression! Please let us know.

I did not consider the B17 to be a good locomotive. They tended to be rough riders. They were the LNER equivalent of the LMS Jubilee, which was also not a good locomotive and another rough rider. Nevertheless, I support the brave souls who hope to build two new B17's because our younger folk can then see more of how things were in the now distant past. The new B 17 can be fitted with an air compressor and be true to prototype, and then be able to operate air-braked trains.

Sir Brian

^H is the unix for backspace

Gresley was given a design brief by the traffic department for a replacement B12 which included a 17 ton maximum axle load. Both Gresley's team in Kings Cross and the Doncaster drawing office failed to design a suitable arrangement for the drive from the middle cylinder, so the design was passed over to NBL. NBL used the same engine design, with divided drive, that they put into the Royal Scots the previous year, but failed to make the 17 Ton axle load. The first locos had an axle load of 18 Tons. To get even that figure they skimped on the frame thickness, which meant that the first batch had to have their frames replaced within the first 5 years.

Of course, Gresley could have made life easier, and met the design spec by simply leaving out the middle cylinder, but that would have meant he would have had to forgo his patent royalties for the derived motion and a loss of face. Instead he lumbered the company with a class of mediocre locos with high maintenance costs.

[NNRFan]

Not sure if its been said already but the North British Locomotive Preservation Group are planning to build a new LNER B17

http://www.nbloco.net/

[pete2hogs]

So what we are saying is that neither Gresley nor the NBL experts could fulfill the design brief and this is somehow Gresley's fault? Were the Royal Scots two cylinder? Were the J39's 3 cylinder?

Please let's leave these conspiracy theories and devious motives to the modern age where they belong. It's quite clear Gresley genuinely thought that a three cylinder engine had inherent advantages, and he was hardly alone in that. Raven for one had the same belief, and an even more maintenance-unfriendly motion design. Its reported by many that the conjugated gear itself was not a problem, more that the consequences of it should have led to more robust design of some other components.

The B17's may or may not have been popular with enginemen but they were much beloved by train enthusiasts in East Anglia - I still meet people who go on about 'Sandys' with affection.

Me, I'd rather see a 'Claud' but if we are only going to recreate 'perfect' engines the job's already done - there aren't any.