Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

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nutford
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 pm

Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by nutford » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:01 pm

I am trying to confirm the formation of the West Riding Pullman, as of around 1930. There is a lot of (often conflicting) information about on this, mainly because people get confused with the various Pullman trains running on this route or parts of it - eg 'Yorkshire Pullman', 'Harrogate Pullman', 'Queen of Scots Pullman'.

So to be clear, this train began as 'Harrogate Pullman' in 1923, was renamed 'West Riding Pullman' in 1928, and became 'Yorkshire Pullman' in 1935; I am interested in the formation around 1930, and specifically as it passed through Ripon. I 'know', or think I know, it was 5 coaches, being Brake 3rd, 2 restaurant 1sts, and 2 restaurant 3rds. (A spotters list in a Ken Hoole book confirms it as 5 coaches, and the 1932 carriage roster matches that and has the formation as above).

What I do not know (for sure), is if these were matchboard or steel cars - I believe the former; and if they were 8 or 12 wheel (I think the restaurant cars were perhaps 12 wheel, unsure about the brake...?) Nor do I know any of the coach names. Can anyone add any detail? Thanks!

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by john coffin » Thu Mar 28, 2019 5:13 pm

Checking Yeadon's Named trains of the LNER. it is not very clear in the text about the train formation.
However, there are a couple photos from 1930, with either a D11 and a C1 pulling.
The carriages appear to have straight sides so I assume that makes them matchboard stock.
There seems to be 7-8 carriages in the train, and some of the pictures show that a Gresley brake
was also included in the train.

HTH

Paul

nutford
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by nutford » Thu Mar 28, 2019 6:39 pm

Paul - the 7-8 carriages doesn't surprise me - not least I think the length may well have varied over time, or even by day - and at times I think extra coaches may have been added for part of the journey. Depends what you read and where! And I think there was a shortage of Pullman brakes so if one was u/s a standard brake had to be used.

A C1 would be reasonably 'normal' I think, if there was such a thing, certainly up as far as Harrogate. Likewise D11s. At Harrogate the loco was normally changed to an NER region loco, a C7 or A1, but some of the GNR C1s were transferred to the NER area and used further north. Did you happen to see if they were 12-wheel coaches...?

john coffin
LNER Thompson B1 4-6-0 'Antelope'
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Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by john coffin » Thu Mar 28, 2019 7:31 pm

It appears that some of them certainly were 6 wheeled bogies, but since as usual the pictures were really of the
locos, you only see some the carriages, and the bogie detail is often rather dark.

Paul

nutford
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by nutford » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:03 pm

Just read an article which says the WRP was made up with cars from the (defunct) Sheffield Pullman in June 1924: one 8-wheel K-type and four 12-wheelers.

40 - 29 seat 3rd class brake parlour
45 - 36 seat 3rd class kitchen car
Geraldine - K type 22 seat 1st class kitchen car (8-wheel)
56 - 35 seat third class kitchen car
41 - 29 seat 3rd class brake parlour

Goes on to list various other cars, and like pretty much everything about these trains gets (to me) totally confusing so not much the wiser!

Seagull
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Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by Seagull » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:20 pm

I don't know if it's of any use but the winter 1935-6 formation was;-

North is at the top. Description - weight - passengers - destination {name/No.}

Pullman 3rd brake (12 wheel) - 43t - 17 - Harrogate {car No.46}
Pullman 1st kitchen - 39t - 22 - Harrogate {maybe Marcelle or Kathleen}
Pullman 3rd kitchen - 42t - 30 = Harrogate {after 1931 was No.81 don't know what was before}
Pullman 3rd parlour - 40t - 42 - Harrogate {after 1931 was No.83 don't know what was before}
Pullman 3rd kitchen - 44t - 35 - Halifax (Old) {No.44}
Pulman 1st brake (12 wheel) - 43t - 16 - Halifax (Old) {Catania - spare was Cambria}
Brake van (NE) (B) (6 wheel) [Attached Doncaster 7.30pm] - Hull {no details}
Pullman 1st kitchen - 39t - 22 - Hull {Sybil}
Pullman 3rd parlour - 40t - 42 - Hull {after 1931 was No.84 don't know what was before}

Alan

PS. The van attached at Doncaster was used for the passengers luggage for Hull when the two Hull cars were detached as they had no guards space.
Last edited by Seagull on Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Playing trains, but trying to get serious

nutford
LNER J94 0-6-0ST Austerity
Posts: 31
Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by nutford » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:28 pm

Thanks Alan...

Well I've just found another thread on this same subject, and looks like I'm flogging a dead horse. There's 4 pages of it, and seems every source differs from every other source - I suspect the formation may have changed so much one day was not the same as the next, let alone one year. The conclusion is there were some 12 wheelers, and some 8 wheelers, they were matchboard apart form the steel ones, and some were kitchen cars and some were parlour cars and some were brakes. And that's about it lol! Oh well......

Seagull
GNSR D40 4-4-0
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:15 pm
Location: Between a cheap railway station and a ploughed field

Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by Seagull » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:31 pm

Yes this train probably suffered more variations in stock than nearly any other, especially before 1935!

Good Luck.

Alan
Playing trains, but trying to get serious

JASd17
LNER V2 2-6-2 'Green Arrow'
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Re: Formation of West Riding Pullman 1930?

Post by JASd17 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 12:24 am

I am sure this has been debated before.

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11851&hilit=pullman

There are also excellent Pullman Car sites, most notably Terry Bye.

John

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