Page 1 of 1

A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:18 pm
by Quicksilver95
According to RCTS Vol 2A, the "special" A4s were initially fitted with black nameplates, and were changed to red "around 1938" (page 121). However I have seen a well known colour photograph of Golden Shuttle at Wakefield Westgate in 1937 with a red background to its nameplate. Either the date of this photo is incorrect or RCTS is inaccurate regarding the nameplate colours. Can anyone shed any more light? I am hoping to model 4496 as it appeared in late 1937 so would appreciate some clarification on this issue.

Joshua

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:13 pm
by 65447
1937 is 'around 1938'...

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:21 pm
by Quicksilver95
That's true, but then raises the question of when the change was made. I'm aiming to model as specifically as early November. The locomotive only entered service in early September, was the nameplate changed as soon as the first two months? I know the photo is found in "LNER Locomotives in colour", but haven't got a copy yet myself, can anyone who does confirm whether that gives an exact date for the photograph?

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 11:34 pm
by 65447
The extended caption only states 'late 1937', nothing more specific than that. It is possible, even likely, that the change occurred when Golden Fleece and Golden Shuttle on being selected to haul the 'West Riding Limited' were repainted in a special version of the Garter Blue livery with stainless steel letters. The appropriate Yeadon's Register may give a works date; I don't have a copy as it's not relevant to the GE Section...

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:51 am
by Quicksilver95
Just had a look at the relevant Yeadons, both 4495 and 4496 were not in the works until December 37 when they had their tenders modified, so it could have been changed then. I've been having a look at the photo and it's unclear to me whether the additional fairing on the tender is present or not. If the fairing has been removed in the photo that would set it in late December, and we could quite reasonably assume the nameplate was changed in the Dec 37 works visit.

For copyright purposes I won't post a copy of the photo here but someone has posted a copy halfway down this thread on the other forum:
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... fferences/

I don't think the change would have been upon selection for the West Riding (or Coronation for the other 5) as some of them went immediately to service on those trains. 4496 itself was never in traffic before being selected (although 4495 was for a week).

So I think the answer probably lies in whether people think the extended tender fairings were present or not in the photo at Westgate or not - any thoughts?

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:21 am
by giner
Just to muddy the waters, and anyone is welcome to correct me, but I'm sure that I've seen a photo of an A4 with a light blue background on its nameplate. I can't recall where I saw it, or what loco was so adorned.

A swift shufty around the web and I found this:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=gr ... 3A40219892

(The photo is four rows down from the top of the page.)

Just the nameplate and no way of verifiying whether or not it's authentic. Does it ring any bells with anyone?

A bit more digging and this:
http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page29.htm

(Scroll down the page about a quarter of a way down.)

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:11 pm
by JASd17
giner,

There is no point in discussing BR era nameplate colours for the A4s, it is a subject which has no obvious answers.

John

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:45 pm
by giner
No "obvious" answers should always be the point of discussing any subject. Through probings come answers. The scientific world relies on that very principle. Of course, whether or not one chooses to participate is entirely up to the individual.

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:32 pm
by 65447
giner wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 10:45 pm
No "obvious" answers should always be the point of discussing any subject. Through probings come answers. The scientific world relies on that very principle. Of course, whether or not one chooses to participate is entirely up to the individual.
It has no obvious answers because better minds have applied themselves to the problem and found it unresolvable - but you are welcome to devote all your energies to it, you never know... 8)

Re: A4 Nameplate colour query

Posted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:15 am
by JASd17
I agree with 65447.

It is an issue which time and extreme determination may start to unravel. But you may find several threads even on this forum which come to no firm conclusions. In fact they confuse in many respects.

The whole back catalogue of Colour-Rail and other duplicated slides may help, if one can be sure of the colours on the slides. The dates would have to be accurate too.

What I can say with certainty is that in the British Railways era there were individual A4s which carried both black and red backed nameplates. And in the case of Scottish Region allocated A4s I have evidence of the same locos carrying black and blue backed nameplates in the late 1950s and into the 1960s.

There is no obvious cut-off point.

As to the original point, on LNER nameplates, it may well depend on pre or post-war. In this case the lack of completely reliable sources makes things awkward.

The Gresley Observer may be a good source on several of these issues.

John