NER J27- Request for Information

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majormagna
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NER J27- Request for Information

Post by majormagna »

Hello all, I'd just like to let you know that a friend of mine is currently working on making a P3/J27 for Train Sim 2020, but we have some questions.

Does anyone have, or know of, a decent photo of the backhead on the original boiler for the class? (As 2392 is fitted with the later Dia 57A boiler, built from the late 1930s onward) the best we have is of an unlagged boiler taken at Darlington Works, which is missing a few controls. If not, the backhead of a P2/J26, or even S/B13, S1/B14, or S2/B15 would be acceptable for reference.

Secondly, the J27 (and Q7) has a small lever with a lock on the drivers side, connected to a rod that passes to a large aparatus on the firemans side of the cab, is this the steam brake?

Finally, 2392 was originally superheated, is it still fitted with the larger wheel counterweight fitted to such locos in the early 30s, or did it recieve a smaller one as fitted to the saturated locos at the same time?

Any other pieces of info, such as the locos temprament and operational notes would also be VERY welcome.

Thank you.
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john coffin
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by john coffin »

The Much maligned Dr Tuplin published a number of books about pre grouping railway engines.
In each he included either a drawing or a photo of the interior of the cab of a representative
loco.

in his North Eastern steam, is a drawing of the interior of an M1 4-4-0, which he references as
a standard outline for a Wilson Worsdell loco.Knowing how traditional NER engine crews were,
witness the sacking of McDonnell for daring to change the cab layout, it seems likely this
drawing would allow one to create a pretty accurate representation of concurrent NER locos.
The drawing is based on the 4-4-0 at York.

Paul
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tomburnham
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by tomburnham »

Although not accessible at the moment, the National Railway Museum lists under drawing number 9758 in the Darlington Works Drawing List the Pipe and Rod End Views Arrangement for the NER Class P3 superheated. This will show the backhead detail.

I have a copy of the Pipe and Rod End Views of the NER Class T2/Q6 and have attached the drawing of the cab view.

Tom.
Class-T2-Q6-Cab-Pipe-and-Ro.jpg
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drmditch

Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by drmditch »

john coffin wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 12:04 pm in his North Eastern steam, is a drawing of the interior of an M1 4-4-0, which he references as
a standard outline for a Wilson Worsdell loco.Knowing how traditional NER engine crews were,
witness the sacking of McDonnell for daring to change the cab layout, it seems likely this
drawing would allow one to create a pretty accurate representation of concurrent NER locos.
The drawing is based on the 4-4-0 at York.

Paul
NER No.1621 is not at York, but at Locomotion in Shildon.
When it was at York they used it as a corridor between platforms in the Station Hall. It had a kind of 'fence' erected which obscured the footplate.
Happy to say that this has recently been removed.

Should also point out that Mr McDonnell had other problems in addition to the cab layout.
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by john coffin »

Plainly I have not been to York for a while, so did not know where the M1 was :oops:

As for Mcdonnell, whilst I understand that there were numerous things, it is still at this time, amazing that someone so
successful on the GSWR in Ireland, indeed, the GNR UK used his basic bogie for many years. Could fall from grace so
quickly and easily.

Not sure how any railway can run when the drivers rule the roost and cause the company to design locos by committee,
no matter how successful some of them become.

Paul
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by john coffin »

Worth remembering that even Gresley had problems with some of his locos after Grouping, especially initially with the A1 Pacifics.
Or was that just because they wanted to be loyal to Raven and his A2's??

Paul
drmditch

Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by drmditch »

john coffin wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 12:53 pm As for Mcdonnell, whilst I understand that there were numerous things, it is still at this time, amazing that someone so
successful on the GSWR in Ireland, indeed, the GNR UK used his basic bogie for many years. Could fall from grace so
quickly and easily.

Not sure how any railway can run when the drivers rule the roost and cause the company to design locos by committee,
no matter how successful some of them become.

Paul
Yes, the swing link bogie that Ivatt bought from Ireland to Doncaster does not usually get properly accredited.
As regards the reasons for McDonnell's departure from the NER, perhaps you are being a bit over-influenced by Tuplin's rather dramatic account in his 'North Eastern Steam' ?

There was clearly some other politicking going on in the NER at the time. The principal problem was probably that McDonnell, having been bought in to improve production at Gateshead, during the process of re-organisation caused the output, especially of boilers, to drop dramatically. Of course, many problems had just been accumulating gradually under Fletcher.

I think you should also consider the the NER was a very successful and profitable railway. Larger and more profitable (although perhaps I should check this) than the GNR. I'm not sure either that a Design Committee chaired by a successful business man and including an engineer of the calibre of Wilson Worsdell would have had much wrong with it.

We are perhaps getting away from the subject of this thread, but as a convinced NER/NEA partisan I could consider the 1923 grouping as providing the NER with a London extension!
(And given pre-1913 profitability this was probably the intention.
drmditch

Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by drmditch »

john coffin wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 1:01 pm Worth remembering that even Gresley had problems with some of his locos after Grouping, especially initially with the A1 Pacifics.
Or was that just because they wanted to be loyal to Raven and his A2's??

Paul
I don't think it was the Raven A2s that the NEA drivers wanted to be loyal to it was the Zs
The only account I have found of the meeting at York with Gresley and some of the NEA drivers, is by Dr Ransome-Wallis (who apparently was allowed as a schoolboy to attend), and lists as subjects of complaint the 'ponkety-tink' of the Gresley side-rods, and the stiffness of the Pacific regulators, again compared with the Zs.

(I keep meaning to do some more research on this, because the initial A1 regulator was a Lockyer valve of the basic Darlington design. Obviously the detail engineering and differences between the Darlington quadrant and the Doncaster 'pull-out' handles gave considerable differences in actual handling.)

I think that you and I have discussed this before... ....here....
majormagna
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by majormagna »

Thanks for the replies everyone, much apprerciated, though I do still have some questions.

In the image below, could someone please clarify for me what the seven numbered controls are?

My current thinking is that #1 is the steam brake (a similar control is present on the Q7), presumably the structure on the firemans side that the rod leads to was on the drivers side (either in the same location as the vac brake assembly, or attached to the side of the injector, as seen on tomburnham's Q6 GA drawing) pre-preservation?

I assume that #3 through #7 are steam isolating valves, but would like confirmation on that.
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J27 Cab Pres.jpg
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tomburnham
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by tomburnham »

Majormagna,

The appearance of the backhead will depend on the date you wish to depict the locomotive but the 3D rendition in your initial post shows the NER P3 in its original condition with a saturated boiler and Ramsbottom safety valves, although with the larger cut out windows on the cab front rather than the earlier round ones, and as such would look similar to the drawing of the T2/Q6.
I've attached a sketch that was supplied with the late Walter Hodgson's excellent, well researched and accurate, 7mm model of the J26/27 that shows the differences between the Dia 57 and 57A boilers. On the earlier Dia 57 boiler the steam manifold on top of the boiler and the steam supply feeding it was absent and in its place were the dual whistles and steam gauge. Also attached is a photo of the whistle and steam gauge arrangement.
The Class P3 was intended for use on heavy unfitted mineral trains and were not provided with either Westinghouse or vacuum brakes for the train, although No 2392 was fitted with a vacuum brake in preservation. The locomotive only had a steam brake for the engine but there was a mechanical link to the tender brakes to give a simultaneous application.
Only the superheated locomotives were initially provided with balance weights to the centre drivers as they were to be used on faster mainline goods trains but from 1932 the earlier non-superheated locos began to be fitted with weights in order to speed up the slower freights.

Tom.

Edited to ad photo.
Class P3_edited-1.jpg
P7111076_edited-1.jpg
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tomburnham
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by tomburnham »

Hi Majormagna,

Having studied the 3D rendition further, can I suggest some amendments?
The coupling rods should have a sump and drain plug on the bottom of the bosses as shown on these photos of the rods on the preserved P3 and the joint in the rods is between the centre boss and the front rod.
P3 centre coupling rod boss.jpg
P3 coupling rod front boss.jpg
The NER pattern mechanical lubricator looks like this.
RIMG0028_edited-2.jpg
RIMG0029_edited-2.jpg
It may be an optical illusion but the dome looks to have parallel sides whereas it should have a slight taper, narrowing towards the top

Cheers,
Tom.
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tomburnham
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by tomburnham »

Here's a photo of a superheated P3 showing the differences referred to in the previous posting.

Tom.
Class P3 Superheated.jpg
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majormagna
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Re: NER J27- Request for Information

Post by majormagna »

Thanks, the 3D model isn't mine, but I am assisting in research for it. As I'm having to communicate with the modeller, it may be too late to change some aspects of the model, as "texturing" (i.e. applying the liveries) has already begun.

The rods: Good spot, somehow that was missed by everyone that's seen the model so far. We may not be able to get the sump and drain in, but the orientation should be fixed soon.

Aside from the "wheel", and the expanded area on the "rear" of the lubricator, it looks about right to me, as for the dome, both I and the modeller are sure that the taper is in fact very slight, as the below photo shows the dome to have an almost-parallel profile.

There is another issue that it may be too late to fix, that being the "housing" around the coupling, I assume this was added in the 1950s/60s though it's missing from many BR locos.


I'm really glad, and thankful, to all of you who have sent information about the P3, I had posted elsehwere asking for help, but no-one seems to have replied yet, this forum is the only place I've got any reponse!
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