Green Arrow & The NRM policy

silver fox · Post by **silver fox** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:52 pm

251 is at Bressingham at the moment, and the midland Compound is now in the new museum on the SVR, as for 850, it is in and out of the work shop like a jack in a box, abiet out for two weeks at present, although on sunday I noticed a bit of the shell in the work shop, and it's support coach is in the paint shop

hq1hitchin · Post by **hq1hitchin** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:38 am

Assuming for a moment that some of the long term NRM residents could be put back into working order, would those with right hand drive be warmly accepted on to the main lines due to any signal sighting difficulties ?

All the GW engines were, and are, right hand drive, aren't they?

Bullhead · Post by **Bullhead** » Tue May 13, 2008 8:39 am

hq1hitchin wrote:All the GW engines were, and are, right hand drive, aren't they?

Yes, I think so. GO/RT3440 refers to potential signal sighting problems with RHD locomotives, but does not exclude them from running on the national network for this reason, subject to appropriate risk mitigation being provided. In a way, I suppose it's a little similar to running a LHD machine tender-first.

pete2hogs · Post by **pete2hogs** » Thu May 15, 2008 11:50 am

251 has a superheated boiler with no superheater, slide valve cylinders, and numerous other items from its late condition have been removed /replaced to restore its original appearance. So even if it was restored to steam, without a huge expenditure it would be a shadow of its former self.

When it was in steam in the 1950's apparently it just about moved its own weight, which is why it normally worked double headed with 990 or something else.

Please let us not get obsessed with restoring every single engine to steam - some genuinely are museum pieces and should remain so.

silver fox · Post by **silver fox** » Thu May 15, 2008 6:06 pm

251 at Bressingham

hq1hitchin · Post by **hq1hitchin** » Thu May 15, 2008 7:05 pm

[quote=Please let us not get obsessed with restoring every single engine to steam - some genuinely are museum pieces and should remain so]

No, sorry - that's all part of the challenge. I'm certainly not obsessed with restoring every single steam engine to working order but nor were the boyos who took so many basket cases from Barry and got them going. Compared to what they acheived, No251 would be a snip. Given that there are so few GNR engines in existence, who could begrudge us that?

Lovely pic, Silver Fox, thank you

Bullhead · Post by **Bullhead** » Thu May 15, 2008 8:22 pm

Seconded - a very nice picture.

silver fox · Post by **silver fox** » Thu May 15, 2008 11:21 pm

Also at Bressingham is
GER 490

and GNR 990

pete2hogs · Post by **pete2hogs** » Fri May 16, 2008 9:09 am

No, sorry - that's all part of the challenge. I'm certainly not obsessed with restoring every single steam engine to working order but nor were the boyos who took so many basket cases from Barry and got them going. Compared to what they acheived, No251 would be a snip. Given that there are so few GNR engines in existence, who could begrudge us that?

Well, how about 990? That only needs like-for-like replacement to get it back into steam and back to its full potential. Although it is historical as the first Atlantic surely that takes second place to 251 as the progenitor of the GNR/LNER big engine policy.

We do need some locos kept in their preserved - in the true sense of the word - condition as historical artifacts for future generations. Anything else is selfish.

I'm not picking on the GNR - I'd love to see the E4 running again, but it shouldn't be done - it also is a restoration to original condition that could not now be repeated. It is not as significant an engine as 251, but it is a rare example of a late Victorian engine in near-original condition- there really are very few of them. And it also stands as a memorial to Stratford works, who somehow found most of the original parts in the stores (although I believe the lubricator is a wooden replica).

Most of the Barry engines were already in a terrible state when rescued - for them it was either substantial restoration or the scrapheap. The same does not apply to precious museum exhibits whose future is secure and whose current condition is part of their 'historicity' (Is that a word

? ) They aren't a bank of restoration projects.

In any case before too many years we should have the Brighton Atlantic, which is after all a GNR design, cosmetically touched up.

Regards

Pete

silver fox · Post by **silver fox** » Fri May 16, 2008 5:17 pm

Precisly the point, as I see it there are 3 types of locos
Preserved for historical in museums
Bought privatly to run on the network
Rescued from the scrap yard and returned to working order

Oh I forgot the new bread
Built from scratch!

When you take the likes of Mallard, it will never run again, not due to it being a popular exibit at York, but when it was restored last time, it was a limited steaming, and had limited running. If they did it now, the rules have been changed, and most of the historical origonal parts will be lost for ever. Yes they can do Scotsman, but this was in catagory 2 Bought privatly for running on the network.
The fact some of the presereved for museum peices have been/ are running is a bonus really, I think in the national collection City of Truo has to be the oldest regular runner.

jwealleans · Post by **jwealleans** » Fri May 16, 2008 5:33 pm

We do need some locos kept in their preserved - in the true sense of the word - condition as historical artifacts for future generations. Anything else is selfish.

I can see the logic of that argument, although I don't agree with it. However, how does that apply to Oliver Cromwell? Alan Bloom kept that locomotive exactly as it was when the fire went out for the last time - I'm not even sure they emptied the ashpan. Given the significance of its last working, surely a candidate for that kind of glass case preservation. Yet when it suits, it's taken apart and restored to working condition in just the way you are apparently saying that 251, or 790, or some of the others should not be.

Original parts can be preserved for later replacement. The more intrusive demands of the modern railway - air brakes, OTMR - aren't needed if the restoration is for preserved railway use only.

I understand the importance of these engines as historical artefacts and I entirely appreciate that no organisation has unlimited resources. I'd much rather see them in use and working than stuffed and mounted and I'd rather there was a programme of rolling restoration and use than the same locos - 4472, 6229, 850 and now 70013 - being the only ones which see any use.

Bullhead · Post by **Bullhead** » Sat May 17, 2008 7:59 am

silver fox wrote:Oh I forgot the new bread
Built from scratch!

You need a lot of dough for a project like that...

There's an IWM Duxford exhibit which encapsulates this dilemma very nicely. An Me109, which crash-landed during the Battle of Britain and was subsequently used as a touring fund-raiser, has been conserved in "as found" condition down one side and restored down the other. It looks very odd - I can only hope they don't do something similar to, say, "Rocket"!

Bryan · Post by **Bryan** » Sat May 17, 2008 8:17 pm

[Oh I forgot the new bread
Built from scratch]

Is that from Warburtons or Homepride?[/quote]

f4kphantom · Post by **f4kphantom** » Sun May 18, 2008 3:41 pm

Nice with a bit of STREAKy bacon

Post by **richard** » Sun May 18, 2008 7:44 pm

or a PEPPERCORN topping...

Richard