Green Arrow & NRM Policy

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richard
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Green Arrow & NRM Policy

Post by richard » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:45 pm

Geoff and myself have been having a discussion in the past few days. Centered around his trip to the NRM, we have discussed "Green Arrow", NRM policy, and some photos that he has taken for the site (mainly the Bouch 'Long Boiler'). Geoff has suggested that I post the V2 & NRM stuff here, so we can involve more people and get some interesting discussion!

So here goes...
I've put Geoff's comments in white quote boxes - my comments are normal text. I've also edited the photography comments out.

Richard
---------------
There were some rumours going around that GA wouldn't be running again (don't know if you'd heard?). Anyway, I got the photogs I wanted of GA's tender detail - and met one of the guy's working on GA and who is part of the support crew when it's running (he's currently building a 5" gauge one so he had all the drawings and measurements) and he tells me that GA will definitely be running again in the summer on the Scarboro runs and is scheduled to run at least to the end of it's boiler ticket - for the next 2-1/2 yrs. They did find a crack in the cylinder block casting - a long time ago - which has been stitched and was not damaged any more in the conrod bending escapade (you should see the rod - it's a wow!! - or probably you have if it was out when you were there) so it will be business as usual, apparently.

And, since they now have a new Chief Mech Engineer at the NRM, there is new thinking and talk of GA continuing after the current tick et runs out, with a new ticket, so who knows?
Good news indeed. Yes I'd seen the bent con-rod - there's a picture on the V2 page on my site.

I'd hear rumours that it wouldn't run - but they were the usual newsgroup rumblings. No doubt the same people who say that Flying Scotsman doesn't exist (all the bits have been replaced, alledgedly), should be stuffed, but really are jealous of the publicity it gets and just like being armchair naysayers!

I'd heard about the crack - and it all comes down to cost and philosophy of originality. In BR days, the solution would have been simple - replace the monobloc with three castings. But now she's a museum piece, it isn't quite so simple.

You say the D17 has gone? Over the past 8 months, I've been really impressed by how much they've been moving stuff around!
Eg. photos people have posted on the forums, pictures of engines elsewhere,etc.
Again, people complain about everything being up in York, but in reality a good proportion of the static collection seems to be on the road...
I did take a close up of the conrod if you're interested - I'll send it anyway so that you can do what you wish with it.

When I was talking to Ian Sparks (the guy who works with GA) he was saying that, like you said - replacing with individual castings would be a way to do it - but, as there are no cylinder castings left (even if the purists would allow the original to be changed!!??), there are three ways of repairing the cylind er block problem:- 1) to cast three individual ones - problem machining patterns and the like - Mega expensive; 2) Cast a single three cyl block like the one on GA - problem same as No1; 3) repair existing block - modern technology and methods could get around this problem - still expensive but not anyway near as bad as the first two. The other problem there apparently is the eating away at the outlets from the cylinders into the smoke box with sulphuric acid (which of course comes from the sulphur content in the coal) and they do have a lot of problem with this.

There will come a time when the problem will be how long can these machines be kept running and how far do we go to do it. They must ultimately decide that they will have to have so many runners and whatever it takes to keep them running - I'm thinking on the replacing parts with non standard ones (three cyl block with individual ones for example), not cost wise - they will have to go down that road irrespective of the purists.

The museum do shift a lot around the country now, which is good - keeps interest alive.
Yes I guess its true about them getting older and eventually won't be able to run. Already we seem to be seeing less of the very old engines in running condition - the Stirling Single, the Ivatt Atlantics, the D11, etc.

It is good to hear that the guy you spoke to, talking sense - so many enthusiasts criticise everything the NRM do, they must wonder why they do it!
Richard Marsden
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Rlangham
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Post by Rlangham » Fri Feb 03, 2006 9:25 am

What's this about the D17, where has it moved? Hopefully it's somewhere more photogenic, last time I went there was a big black block in front of it!

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Post by richard » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:51 pm

I asked Geoff to take a photo of the D17 - as you say it was difficult to get a picture where it was. He says it has been moved to Barrow.

Luckily he got a couple of good pictures of the Bouch Long Boiler - the other engine I had trouble photographing. (it is squeezed between two others around the turntable)


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Post by Rlangham » Fri Feb 03, 2006 7:59 pm

Strange, wonder why on earth they moved it there, it's an ex-LMS roundhouse and mostly full of diesels/electrics/BR liveried steam loco's, so a victorian NER liveried express locomotive will stand out a bit!

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Post by GeoffB » Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:53 pm

Hi,

Can only quote that from a couple of NRM people that were attached to the workshops - they said it had been moved there but i must admit, they didn't seem too certain.

GeoffB

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Post by richard » Sat Feb 04, 2006 8:48 pm

An ex-LMS roundhouse might sound odd, but look at where the A4s are!
Forgetting about the two in North America (!), the three (near-) steamable ones are in GWR country (Union of South Africa / Severn Valley), SR country (Bittern / Mid-Hants), and a severe branch line (SNG / NYMR).

Which means the only one that is in an authentic place, is Mallard!


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Post by x568wcn » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:54 pm

I mentioned in nother thread Green Arrow would be up and running this Summer to Scarborough, and I mentioned what happened to the rod, with picture.

As for outbasing them, the Super D which is nearly complete now in the workshop is a Barrow Hill shedded one too.
And as for moving them around the country, how many other museums do this? It just means here in York we don't see that many, like City of Truro, you have to know when it's coming in to catch it, before it's off again!
And the website is always ages behind what is really where!!!
By Mark t
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www.yorksteam.co.uk

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Post by Matt » Sun Feb 05, 2006 12:28 am

Be able to catch Truro up here in late Spring on the NYMR, more Western rubbish invading the Moors :evil:

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Post by richard » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:01 am

Mark: Yes a few of us have discussed 'Green Arrow' - it is a hot topic! No doubt it will continue to be. Regardless of whether it gets the overhaul or not when the boiler ticket expires, I bet we'll have lots to discuss about it! (they should! they shouldn't! etc)

Taking engines on tour: On the one hand, a lot of people complain that they don't see the engines because they're all in York! Eg. Tom Quayle's complaint about no big steam in the North West, or the various rumblings on the newsgroups about nothing in the London area! Then there are people who live in the York area, or visit, and want to see their favourites.
The NRM have publically said that this is one of the main reasons for keeping 'Mallard' at York in static condition. When people visit, this is one of the engines that they want to see.

Perhaps us enthusiasts have it good, because we can take greater enjoyment by finding the lesser known engines. I know when I was over in August, I was very happy to find the J17 and the J69. I knew what the J69 was as soon as I saw it (a worthy if lesser known engine type), but it took a bit of guesswork to work out what the J17 was when I spied it from the footbridge.


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Post by Matt » Mon Feb 06, 2006 1:13 pm

richard wrote: Tom Quayle's complaint about no big steam in the North West,
Although it may not be LNER, there certainly is big steam in the North West! 6201, 5690, 71000, 45407 and 76079 at the ELR plus others and 48151 and 5972 at Carnforth aswell as 62005 at the mo!

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Post by richard » Mon Feb 06, 2006 3:34 pm

I should let Tom speak for himself, but I think his point was that they weren't NRM ones.

I proposed that the NRM should "fill the gaps" as it were - funding areas of preservation that are not adequately covered by independent groups.


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Post by Rlangham » Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:17 pm

When you think about it, we have a heck of a lot to thank the NRM for, especially for preserving LNER locos, after all half of all North Eastern Railway steam loco's are NRM, and they also preserved NER electric shunting locomotive number 1, and a railcar which is at the George Stephenson Museum. They have most of the GNR stuff left and a good proportion of GER as well. The LNER is the worst represented out of the 'big four' for preserved locomotives, imagine what it would be like without the NRM :shock:

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Post by Muzza » Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:30 am

richard wrote:
Taking engines on tour: Then there are people who live in the York area, or visit, and want to see their favourites.
The NRM have publically said that this is one of the main reasons for keeping 'Mallard' at York in static condition. When people visit, this is one of the engines that they want to see.

Richard
I understand this point. Visiting from Australia 20 years ago, Mallard was absent from York under restoration. It was only thanks to John Bellwood that I was able to get a pass to visit Doncaster works to see her.

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