SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

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cameronian
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by cameronian » Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:48 pm

Thanks for the consist info, RobertCWP.

I'm a bit confused about the number of sets actually working.

The Monday - Friday out and back with a single set seems right. However, if you look at the route, and do a few simple sums with average speed, the Saturday (extended to Bournemouth) arrival would be around 17.00 in Bournmouth, agreeing well with Pyewipe Junction's timetable figure of 16.48. However, Pyewipe Junction gives the Saturday departure from Bournemouth as 11.40, which reversing the sums agrees with the arrival time in Cleethorpes given. Since the Bournemouth departure left before the arrival from Cleethorpes, there must have been a second long distance set used on Saturdays.

If LMR stock was used for this service, then something feels odd. The reason for this is the way the LMR (and LMS prior to nationalisation) operated coaching stock. There was no specific set formations with numbers, as on the Southern. However, sets were in operation and there were coaching circuit tables for the sets. In a LM context a 'set' actually means a 'standard' number of coaches, with a 'standard' accommodation layout, see below. Unfortunately, I have not managed to locate one of these documents.

On these medium distance and secondary services the standard unit of operation would be an Inter-Corridor set. These were either 3 or 4 coach gangwayed sets made up to a standard formation. The 3 coach sets were typically BTK/CK/BTK, and the 4 coach units were typically BTK/CK/TK/BTK. If catering was required, a dining car was inserted in the formation. If a coach was stopped for repair, it was simply removed from the formation and replaced as near like for like, though occasionally open stock might need to be used, or you might find a set with two CK's or perhaps a BCK.

Excursion sets were similarly available, the only difference being the use of a greater proportion of open coaches. If a greater capacity train was required another Inter-Corridior set was added.

Thus, medium distance and/or secondary services were largely composed of gangwayed corridor stock, though some open vehicles (vestibule in LM speak) might appear. This means that trains of this type could be, interms of number of coaches:

(a) 3 on its own
(b) 4 (a 4 on its own, or a 3 with a diner)
(c) 5 (a 4 with a diner)
(d) 3 + 3 = 6 (two 3's)
(e) 3 + 4 = 7 (either a 3 with a 4, or two 3's with a dining car inserted)
(f) 4 + 4 = 8 (either a 3 plus diner with a 4, or two 4's)
(g) 4 + 5 = 9 (a 4 plus another 4 with a diner), and finally, extremely rarely
(h) 5 + 5 =10 (two 4's each with a diner, usually indicating a train to be split somewhere)

Note that whilst there is a 5, such a formation would normally be a 4 with a diner, and this contradicts RobertCWP assertion that the set was formed BTK/TK/CK/TK/BTK, and also Pyewipe's observation that there were no dining facilities provided.

I think it is very likely that, if things were going according to plan i.e. according to the carriage working diagrams given by RobertCWP, then:

(1) the 5 coach set was a special for this run in the formation given.
(2) the 4 coach strengthener sent up to Cleethorpes on Friday, formed the Saturday set through to Bournemouth.
(3) this LM set at Bournemouth laid up over the week.
(4) this set formed the return set that left Bournemouth at 11.40 on Saturday.
(5) the only way a balance could be achieved would be for the Monday Cleethorpes - Birmingham to carry back the 4 coach strengthener.

If this did not occur, the LM would be gradually denuded of 4 coach Inter-Corridor sets, and a great deal more carriage siding accommodation would be required at Cleethorpes and Bournemouth!

Now to throw a small spanner in the works I would direct one's attention to the rear cover of Whitehouse and Dowling's 'British Railways Past & Prsent, no.5 The West Midlands'.

Here we see 61153 pulling 8 coaches across to the up New Street line at Kings Norton, as ECS ex the Kings Norton carriage sidings on 12/04/64. The loco is reasonably clean, tender lining visible (which is good for '64), and in reasonable nick, no steam leaking from the glands, and just a feather from the safety valves again. The first coach is definitely bow ended panelled (Gresley?) stock as are possibly the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The loco is carrying 1E60 chalked on the smokebox door. Is this a regular working code or a possible excursion from East Anglia? I cannot find out where 61153 was shedded at this time, the nearerst I have is Sheffield Darnall in 1958. Any body with information on the shed and meaning of 1E60?

Sorry this is a bit long, hope you are all well.

Regards
Cameronian

rob237
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by rob237 » Wed Aug 24, 2011 6:13 am

From June '63, to withdrawal in Jan '65, 61153 was allocated to Canklow (41D)...
Cheers
Robt P.

cameronian
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by cameronian » Sat Oct 22, 2011 2:39 pm

Hello all

Just found a photo that may prove I'm not totally gaga about seeing Gresley style stock on the Cleethorpes - Birmingham!!

Page 26 (lower plate) of Bob Pixton's book 'Birmingham-Derby, Portrait of a Famous Route', Runpast Publication (usual disclaimer), shows another neat Immingham B1, this time 61318, at the head of a 5 coach train (or possibly 5 coaches plus a van) at Castle Bomwich heading towards Whitacre Junction and the line to Nuneaton. These coaches do not appear to have any LMR or BR genes in them at all.

First coach: bow ended roof and panelled, at least 6 windows, possibly also a half compartment/toilet. Looks to be running on Gresley bogies. This coach in BR 'custard and cream'.

Second coach: also bow ended roof, 4 windows plus what appears to be a luggage section; curiously the luggage section appears to be inset by 3-6 inches. Much deeper trussing under the solebars.

Third and fourth coaches, not bow ended, but not either LMS or BR profile, slightly straighter sides, particularly at the top compared with the first two, in BR C'&C', lower waist line than the first. I'm no expert on LNER stock, well actually not an expert really on any sort of stock, but could this be steel panelled Thompson stock?

Last coach looks like another bow ended roof with panels.

This formation would match the 5 coaches RobertCWP suggested from the carriage working book.

Anybody able to offer any observations?

Kind regrads
cameronian

Boris
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by Boris » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:17 am

On arriving at Cleethorpes you were relieved by sometimes a Boston crew or an Immingham crew.
It classed as a lodging turn believe it or not.

As we ran into the platform ready to leave the engine, Jacket on snap bag on shoulder it was my job to dash to the refreshment room and order the beer.

Three pints of Mansfield, yes three, one for me to drink as the other two were being pulled.

Then back to some cabin or other wash and straighten tie then spend the rest of the day as a tourist.

We had two K2s at Darnall and they always finished up at Cleethorpes never Skegness for some reason.

Loved 'em.

Bid for 61761 smokebox plate on Sheffield auctions but didn't win it
Last edited by Boris on Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
EX DARNALL 39B FIREMAN 1947-55

Hussey
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by Hussey » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:04 pm

I caught this train on Saturday 16 August 1958 as the 0920 from Nottingham to Birmingham when it was pulled by Immingham B1 61374 and it travelled via Trent,Leicester and Nuneaton. Although I was only 11 at the time I am certain it was not Southern region coaches and I think that that a Black Five took over the train at New Street where I got off.

Hussey
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by Hussey » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:37 pm

Can anybody tell me how this train was crewed? Did the Immingham Men crew right through to Birmingham or did they get relieved at Nottingham or even Leicester? In this case we would have the Midland men driving a locomotive of their traditional enemy!

JeffB
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by JeffB » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:50 pm

Dont think this train was crewed to Birmingham by Immingham men. I started my career at Immingham and never heard any one mention going through to Birmingham. I think Lincoln, Boston, Retford and Doncaster was the limit. It was only when the diesels appeared that they went further afield.

rob237
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by rob237 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:04 pm

IIRC, the crew change was made at Nottingham - and then worked through to Brum.

My late uncle, who drove off 16A, told me that he was familiar with several types of LNER loco...

Cheers
Robt P.

stnman
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Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)

Post by stnman » Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:24 pm

A long time since the last post, but I have discovered some additional information, relating to the 1954 - 1960 period. Times given are for summer 1957, and would have been very similar in other years. If all went to plan, the Cleethorpes - Birmingham trains were exclusively formed of ex LMS stock, which was actually based at Gloucester! Two similar sets were involved, both formed BTK/TK/CK/TK/BTK.

The 0657 Cleethorpes - Birmingham arrived there at 1113, and stood at the platform until 1215, when it left for Gloucester, arriving at 1421.
In the reverse direction, the 1351 Gloucester - Birmingham (arrive 1559) then formed the 1650 Birmingham - Cleethorpes (arrive 2128).
Thus each set of stock spent alternate nights at Gloucester and Cleethorpes, whilst the Immingham B1 made a simple out-and-back journey to Birmingham.

On summer Fridays, the southbound train, on arrival at Gloucester, was strengthened by 2 TK, and worked the 1520 to Bournemouth West, arriving at 1923, ready for the northbound train on the Saturday.
Summer Saturdays saw the 1005 Bournemouth W - Cleethorpes (arrive 2128) formed of BTK/TK/CK/TK/BTK/2 TK*//3 TK/CK/BTK (12 vehicles, the maximum allowed over the S&D).
The 2 TK* were spare at Cleethorpes until the following Saturday; the 3 TK/CK/BTK on the rear from Bournemouth (front from Bath GP) were detached at Nottingham; the five usual coaches stood spare on Sunday and then took up the normal Monday working.

The summer Saturday 0657 Cleethorpes - Bournemouth W was initially formed by the normal set strengthened: BTK/2 TK*/TK/CK/TK/BTK (the 2 TK* having stood spare at Cleethorpes since the previous Saturday evening); BTK/CK/BTK were added to the front at Nottingham (therefore arriving Bournemouth on the rear), making 10 vehicles. The 7 Cleethorpes coaches stabled at Bournemouth for almost a week, before being strengthened by a CK and working the following Friday's 1140 Bournemouth W - Derby.
The 3 Nottingham vehicles made their way from Bournemouth to Gloucester via Bristol on the Sunday, where they were made up to the standard 5-coach set ready for Monday's 1351 to Birmingham ....

The LMS/LMR never seemed to take the simple course when it came to Carriage Workings, and from the above it is hardly surprising that (particularly in the summer months) SR and LNE vehicles sometimes found their way into these trains.

Hope the above is of interest,

stnman

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