Re: SO Cleethorpes - Birmingham (New Street)
Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:48 pm
Thanks for the consist info, RobertCWP.
I'm a bit confused about the number of sets actually working.
The Monday - Friday out and back with a single set seems right. However, if you look at the route, and do a few simple sums with average speed, the Saturday (extended to Bournemouth) arrival would be around 17.00 in Bournmouth, agreeing well with Pyewipe Junction's timetable figure of 16.48. However, Pyewipe Junction gives the Saturday departure from Bournemouth as 11.40, which reversing the sums agrees with the arrival time in Cleethorpes given. Since the Bournemouth departure left before the arrival from Cleethorpes, there must have been a second long distance set used on Saturdays.
If LMR stock was used for this service, then something feels odd. The reason for this is the way the LMR (and LMS prior to nationalisation) operated coaching stock. There was no specific set formations with numbers, as on the Southern. However, sets were in operation and there were coaching circuit tables for the sets. In a LM context a 'set' actually means a 'standard' number of coaches, with a 'standard' accommodation layout, see below. Unfortunately, I have not managed to locate one of these documents.
On these medium distance and secondary services the standard unit of operation would be an Inter-Corridor set. These were either 3 or 4 coach gangwayed sets made up to a standard formation. The 3 coach sets were typically BTK/CK/BTK, and the 4 coach units were typically BTK/CK/TK/BTK. If catering was required, a dining car was inserted in the formation. If a coach was stopped for repair, it was simply removed from the formation and replaced as near like for like, though occasionally open stock might need to be used, or you might find a set with two CK's or perhaps a BCK.
Excursion sets were similarly available, the only difference being the use of a greater proportion of open coaches. If a greater capacity train was required another Inter-Corridior set was added.
Thus, medium distance and/or secondary services were largely composed of gangwayed corridor stock, though some open vehicles (vestibule in LM speak) might appear. This means that trains of this type could be, interms of number of coaches:
(a) 3 on its own
(b) 4 (a 4 on its own, or a 3 with a diner)
(c) 5 (a 4 with a diner)
(d) 3 + 3 = 6 (two 3's)
(e) 3 + 4 = 7 (either a 3 with a 4, or two 3's with a dining car inserted)
(f) 4 + 4 = 8 (either a 3 plus diner with a 4, or two 4's)
(g) 4 + 5 = 9 (a 4 plus another 4 with a diner), and finally, extremely rarely
(h) 5 + 5 =10 (two 4's each with a diner, usually indicating a train to be split somewhere)
Note that whilst there is a 5, such a formation would normally be a 4 with a diner, and this contradicts RobertCWP assertion that the set was formed BTK/TK/CK/TK/BTK, and also Pyewipe's observation that there were no dining facilities provided.
I think it is very likely that, if things were going according to plan i.e. according to the carriage working diagrams given by RobertCWP, then:
(1) the 5 coach set was a special for this run in the formation given.
(2) the 4 coach strengthener sent up to Cleethorpes on Friday, formed the Saturday set through to Bournemouth.
(3) this LM set at Bournemouth laid up over the week.
(4) this set formed the return set that left Bournemouth at 11.40 on Saturday.
(5) the only way a balance could be achieved would be for the Monday Cleethorpes - Birmingham to carry back the 4 coach strengthener.
If this did not occur, the LM would be gradually denuded of 4 coach Inter-Corridor sets, and a great deal more carriage siding accommodation would be required at Cleethorpes and Bournemouth!
Now to throw a small spanner in the works I would direct one's attention to the rear cover of Whitehouse and Dowling's 'British Railways Past & Prsent, no.5 The West Midlands'.
Here we see 61153 pulling 8 coaches across to the up New Street line at Kings Norton, as ECS ex the Kings Norton carriage sidings on 12/04/64. The loco is reasonably clean, tender lining visible (which is good for '64), and in reasonable nick, no steam leaking from the glands, and just a feather from the safety valves again. The first coach is definitely bow ended panelled (Gresley?) stock as are possibly the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The loco is carrying 1E60 chalked on the smokebox door. Is this a regular working code or a possible excursion from East Anglia? I cannot find out where 61153 was shedded at this time, the nearerst I have is Sheffield Darnall in 1958. Any body with information on the shed and meaning of 1E60?
Sorry this is a bit long, hope you are all well.
Regards
Cameronian
I'm a bit confused about the number of sets actually working.
The Monday - Friday out and back with a single set seems right. However, if you look at the route, and do a few simple sums with average speed, the Saturday (extended to Bournemouth) arrival would be around 17.00 in Bournmouth, agreeing well with Pyewipe Junction's timetable figure of 16.48. However, Pyewipe Junction gives the Saturday departure from Bournemouth as 11.40, which reversing the sums agrees with the arrival time in Cleethorpes given. Since the Bournemouth departure left before the arrival from Cleethorpes, there must have been a second long distance set used on Saturdays.
If LMR stock was used for this service, then something feels odd. The reason for this is the way the LMR (and LMS prior to nationalisation) operated coaching stock. There was no specific set formations with numbers, as on the Southern. However, sets were in operation and there were coaching circuit tables for the sets. In a LM context a 'set' actually means a 'standard' number of coaches, with a 'standard' accommodation layout, see below. Unfortunately, I have not managed to locate one of these documents.
On these medium distance and secondary services the standard unit of operation would be an Inter-Corridor set. These were either 3 or 4 coach gangwayed sets made up to a standard formation. The 3 coach sets were typically BTK/CK/BTK, and the 4 coach units were typically BTK/CK/TK/BTK. If catering was required, a dining car was inserted in the formation. If a coach was stopped for repair, it was simply removed from the formation and replaced as near like for like, though occasionally open stock might need to be used, or you might find a set with two CK's or perhaps a BCK.
Excursion sets were similarly available, the only difference being the use of a greater proportion of open coaches. If a greater capacity train was required another Inter-Corridior set was added.
Thus, medium distance and/or secondary services were largely composed of gangwayed corridor stock, though some open vehicles (vestibule in LM speak) might appear. This means that trains of this type could be, interms of number of coaches:
(a) 3 on its own
(b) 4 (a 4 on its own, or a 3 with a diner)
(c) 5 (a 4 with a diner)
(d) 3 + 3 = 6 (two 3's)
(e) 3 + 4 = 7 (either a 3 with a 4, or two 3's with a dining car inserted)
(f) 4 + 4 = 8 (either a 3 plus diner with a 4, or two 4's)
(g) 4 + 5 = 9 (a 4 plus another 4 with a diner), and finally, extremely rarely
(h) 5 + 5 =10 (two 4's each with a diner, usually indicating a train to be split somewhere)
Note that whilst there is a 5, such a formation would normally be a 4 with a diner, and this contradicts RobertCWP assertion that the set was formed BTK/TK/CK/TK/BTK, and also Pyewipe's observation that there were no dining facilities provided.
I think it is very likely that, if things were going according to plan i.e. according to the carriage working diagrams given by RobertCWP, then:
(1) the 5 coach set was a special for this run in the formation given.
(2) the 4 coach strengthener sent up to Cleethorpes on Friday, formed the Saturday set through to Bournemouth.
(3) this LM set at Bournemouth laid up over the week.
(4) this set formed the return set that left Bournemouth at 11.40 on Saturday.
(5) the only way a balance could be achieved would be for the Monday Cleethorpes - Birmingham to carry back the 4 coach strengthener.
If this did not occur, the LM would be gradually denuded of 4 coach Inter-Corridor sets, and a great deal more carriage siding accommodation would be required at Cleethorpes and Bournemouth!
Now to throw a small spanner in the works I would direct one's attention to the rear cover of Whitehouse and Dowling's 'British Railways Past & Prsent, no.5 The West Midlands'.
Here we see 61153 pulling 8 coaches across to the up New Street line at Kings Norton, as ECS ex the Kings Norton carriage sidings on 12/04/64. The loco is reasonably clean, tender lining visible (which is good for '64), and in reasonable nick, no steam leaking from the glands, and just a feather from the safety valves again. The first coach is definitely bow ended panelled (Gresley?) stock as are possibly the fourth, fifth, sixth and seventh. The loco is carrying 1E60 chalked on the smokebox door. Is this a regular working code or a possible excursion from East Anglia? I cannot find out where 61153 was shedded at this time, the nearerst I have is Sheffield Darnall in 1958. Any body with information on the shed and meaning of 1E60?
Sorry this is a bit long, hope you are all well.
Regards
Cameronian