King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

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robertcwp
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King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by robertcwp » Fri Oct 14, 2011 10:13 pm

Does anyone know what stock was used in the King's Cross Outer Suburban sets in 1937, please?

The carriage workings list three sets and the vehicles attached to them, but do not specify the formation of the basic sets themselves. The sets worked services between Cambridge/Royston/Baldock and King's Cross.

The other suburban trains are listed simply as Bogie Suburban, which I assume were pairs of Quad-arts. Some of these also had additional vehicles attached and some workings took them as far as Baldock.

2512silverfox

Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by 2512silverfox » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:28 am

There was quite a variety, but the main types were the late built GN twin compo brakes to two diagrams and these covered most of the stopping services out onto the Cambridge branch. Having said that strengtheners could be almost anything and I have photos of Howlden 6 wheelers and even rigid eight wheelers still in use in the late 30's.

robertcwp
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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by robertcwp » Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:56 am

2512silverfox wrote:There was quite a variety, but the main types were the late built GN twin compo brakes to two diagrams and these covered most of the stopping services out onto the Cambridge branch. Having said that strengtheners could be almost anything and I have photos of Howlden 6 wheelers and even rigid eight wheelers still in use in the late 30's.
So possibly like this?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/ ... 1174763647

2512silverfox

Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by 2512silverfox » Sat Oct 15, 2011 11:37 am

Train seems to have come off the Cambridge Branch and would have been typical for a stopper. The catering vehicle in rear is probably being repositioned from Cambridge. The beer trains at this stage were usually about 4 corridors including the buffet car behind either an Atlantic of a D16.

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by swhite01 » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:22 pm

The articulated pairs are probably to GN Dia 218QQ (Brake Third/Lav Composite) they were built for the KX-Baldock-Cambridges services with the working supplemented by a 5th coach. There are a number of pictures documenting the working in various GN/LNER related magazine artilces and books.

Steve Banks made some notes in his Model Rail article "Eastern Services in transition 4", December 2004 with regard to the working but modelled a different diagram of vehicle. There are also photos detailing the working and coaches in the Oakwood Book Great Northern Railway and ECJS Carriages from 1905 by Michael Harris.

The John Edgson series of Isinglass drawings also depict these vehicles with, for the drawing copies I have, comprehensive notes of vehicle workings.

Hope of help,

Steve White

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by robertcwp » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:27 pm

I have looked at photos and DVD footage, which show varying formations and stock. What none of them does is identify what was the basic set to which vehicles were added. The carriage workings show the vehicles attached but do not give the basic set formation that they were added to. Here are the extracts from the carriage workings:

Image

The photo in my collection that I provided a link to earlier in the thread shows what appear to me to be two GNR twins. However they have different underframe trussing so may not be the same types:

Image

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by john coffin » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:36 pm

i would venture that they are not converted howlden 6 or 8 wheelers, rather newer built gresley stock.

both the shape of the rooves, and the style of end would not be howlden stock. in particular NOT dia 218
i suggest you check nick camplings drawing book historic lner carriages

paul

2512silverfox

Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by 2512silverfox » Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:45 am

These outer suburban sets were built by the GNR in 1922 to Diagrams 218RR and 218QQ. The bodies were 55' 6 1/2" long and varied only by the number of first and third compts in the compo section. The underframe was strengthened to take the longer bodies otherwise they were to the Gresley standard outline.

There were ten sets to the two diagrams and usually worked in twos to Cambridge and Huntingdon. The extra vehicle in the photo was probably a catering vehicle being repositioned from Cambridge.

One set was damaged beyond repair at the Shepreth accident in 1928.

They were not covered in HCD Vol 1 but Isinglass covered both sets.

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by Atso » Sat May 25, 2019 3:47 pm

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread.

I'd like to thank those who contributed to/answered the original poster's question (sadly not all of whom are still with us). This has answered the same question I had about this set and I purchased the required drawings from Isinglass today at Railex.

I'm looking forward to modelling this set in the future.
Steve

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by darwins » Tue Mar 03, 2020 8:52 pm

I think I can be a little bit more accurate now about the composition of OUTER SUBURBAN TRAIN No 1 and No 3.
Both of these appear in the GN Main Line Carriage Workings. (17.10 Kings Cross to Baldock)

This document tells us Train No 1 has 24 pairs of wheels, seats 112 First and 420 Third and has a tare of 202 tons.
Train No 3, also 24 axles seats 69 First and 437 Third having a tare of 199 tons.

Neither GNR 218RR which seats 14 First and 98 Third nor 218QQ seating 22 First and 88 Third can be used to make those numbers.
Some trial and error with different diagrams reveals some vehicles that can match the data we have.
The LNER built articulated twin sets need to be used to do this.

For train 1: BT+T / T+F / F+T / T+BT

For train 3: BT+CL / CL+T / T+T / CL+BT

Unfortunately there is no clue about Outer Suburban Train No 2, although we can guess that it would be that it would be something similar.

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by darwins » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:00 pm

Just to add to my last reply.

Now found Train No 2 working 18.52 Kings Cross to Cambridge - it is the same as Train No 3.

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by JASd17 » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:59 pm

Relating 'darwins' formations to the diagrams of the twins:

Train 1:

T + BT -------- T + F

D105/125 - D124/126 - D124/126 - D105/125

Trains 2 and 3:

BT + CL ------ CL + T ------ T + T ------ BT + CL
D107/108 - D123/124 - D105/106 - D107/108

In the formations the brake vehicles would be at the outer ends as 'darwins' shows

John

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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by Norton Wood » Mon Mar 16, 2020 2:03 pm

Hi,

I'm struggling to find out what set this is?

Obviously it's an LNER 1st/3rd Comp Twin Set but I'd like to know the running numbers these carried, I'm currently building a layout set in London on the GE suburban Line between 1935-39, as I understand articulated sets were the norm I'm just hoping this is alright for a layout on the GE
Attachments
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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by WTTReprinter » Tue Mar 17, 2020 9:04 am

I don't believe the GE had any 'twins'
The articulated sets on the GE were 'Quads' for outer suburban work (Hertford & Stortford) and 'Quints' for inner suburbans (Enfield, Chingford and Woolwich - Palace Gates)
The twins tended be used on the Western Division, and elsewhere.
Thanks.
WTT Reprinter
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JASd17
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Re: King's Cross Outer Suburban sets 1937

Post by JASd17 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:58 pm

I wonder if someone has been creative with the Kirk kit twins.

I cannot find a BT(6) + F twin combination in the diagram book at all. There was a BT(5) + F (with 7 compartments) to Diagram 272, built in 1939 for service in Scotland.

Also BT(6) with a Lavatory Composite twin.

There was also a full Third and full First twin.

I might be missing something?

John

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