Loco type ident please

Ptarmigan · Post by **Ptarmigan** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:32 pm

Hello everyone.
nice forum, nice site.
My first post and I hope I am not horribly off-topic !
I found you whilst looking round the web for info (and nostalgia !) about my childhood holiday route, Carlisle to Silloth.
I see that there are lots of knowledgeable people here about Carlisle Canal shed etc. so perhaps someone can identify the type of loco in a picture I found on the "Carlisle & Silloth Bay Railway" website at
http://www.cumbria-railways.co.uk/sillo ... ation.html
in the top picture of the three on that page.

Thanks,
Malcolm.

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 10:43 pm

Malcolm,

I am not an expert on NBR locos, but my guess is that the loco in the photograph is an ex-North British Railway Holmes Class M which became LNER Class D31. The diameter of the boiler looks about right and the shape of the chimney, together with the round cab spectacle plates. Other details in the photograph of the D31 in this LNER Encyclopedia also correspond.

The last of this class of 48 locos was withdrawn in 1952, which fits in with the date of the photograph. There were just 7 left in 1948. They were normally used on secondary passenger services.

I can't quite make out the number on the buffer beam but in 1948 there were still two of these shedded at Carlisle (Canal), LNER 9635 and 9642, which became 2059 and 2060 under the 1946 renumbering and gained 60000 on Nationalisation. They were renumbered 62281 and 62282 to make way for new K1s in 1949.

Colombo

Bullhead · Post by **Bullhead** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:47 am

If you're a student of the Silloth branch you may be interested in following this http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docume ... de1950.pdf link to a report on a fatal derailment on the line in 1950 (involving a J39).

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 12:02 pm

Bullhead,

Thank you for posting the accident report. It really was most interesting, particularly the references to using J39s on secondary passenger duties and their rough riding.

There have been several accidents that have been attributed to the derailment of the leading driver on locos with no leading pony truck, and on each occasion, recommendations have been made and seemingly ignored. One example involve LB&SCR 0-4-2 express tender locos, of which the preserved Gladstone is an example.

It seems that the D31 class were used on the branch.

Colombo

jwealleans · Post by **jwealleans** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 2:23 pm

Isn't it the case, though, Colombo, that where a locomotive with no leading bogie/truck wheels has derailed it has been a combination of poor trackwork (mainly) and excessive speed (less often)? The report here didn't make any observation about the use of locos with a leading driver on relatively fast services per se.

I'm working off the top of my head here, but didn't the Southern have at least one serious incident with a 2-6-4 tank derailing at speed? IIRC it was taken onto ex-GNR metals and trialled and ran fine. I believe the GWR also had to revise the springing arrangements on the Kings after some early derailments. Both of these in prewar days when the standard of maintenance could be expected to be higher than in 1950.

In a purely LNER context, rough riding was by no means (by reputation) confined to the 0-N-N classes.

Perhaps this deserves a new topic in its' own right?

The site Bullhead refers us to is fascinating and I have read through quite a few of the accident reports on there over the last few weeks.

Bullhead · Post by **Bullhead** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:29 pm

jwealleans wrote:Didn't the Southern have at least one serious incident with a 2-6-4 tank derailing at speed?

Yes - this was one of the River (sometimes called the "Rolling Rivers", due to their ride characteristics) class 2-6-4Ts, A800 River Cray, near Sevenoaks in 1927. The entire class was rebuilt in 2-6-0 tender guise, as the class "U".

Ptarmigan · Post by **Ptarmigan** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 4:12 pm

Thanks very much, most interesting.

Colombo> became LNER Class D31,,in this LNER Encyclopedia

Ah!, many thanks for that.
I had infact gone all the way thro' the J, the E and the first of the D (up to D24 section) before I decided that I needed to call for help !

And thanks for the shed info., that puts it in the period in which I am interested.
In my search of the site before I posted I saw ref to Tom Quayle compiling Canal shed info
( viewtopic.php?t=309&highlight=canal+shed )
but I dont know if he has posted the info anywhere ? and I couldn't reach his website (a not found by msn error)
PS. Tom are you nearby ?

Bullhead> ,,fatal derailment on the line in 1950 (involving a J39).

Nice find,
I remember that !, just, (oops, I think I let a cat outada bag !)
I didn't remember the type of loco involved.
I seem to have a prob with my pdf reader, I can only see the first page before it throws an error

, perhaps I need to upgrade my Acrobat (ver4 ), I'll take it to my daughter's more recent computer later in the week and try to get it printed off.

The report cover says London Midland region, so I'm still a little uncertain about the how and the when of the Silloth branch involvment with LNER (hence my uncertainty about being on of off topic with my first post, research continues,,, ) I spent most of my spotting time round the Lanky (sp?) shed at Upperby12B, and at the Kingmoor12A shed.

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:12 pm

Malcolm,

You will find the shed allocation for Carlisle (Canal Street) for 1948 and 1950 on the Locoshed Index at http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~luigi ... coshed.htm

It makes interesting reading. There were only two D31s listed, together with A3s, B1s, D49s, C16s, N15s and for extra interest NBR J36s, including 65216, Byng and an ex-GER J67.

Colombo

Ptarmigan · Post by **Ptarmigan** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 6:58 pm

Hmm, I'm puzzled !
Yes, I had found my way to that site (I think it was via the TomQ forum thread) but all I could see was a list of loco numbers shedded there, how did you get to a listing of those loco types/classifications? presumably by cross-ref from the numbers, but I must have missed the link or something ! (driver error ?! )

Thanks,
Malcolm.

Edit later:
thanks for those loco types, I'll pick my way through them and see, because neither the D31 nor the J39 rings any bells in my rather poor childhood rapidly evaporating memory ( they both look to big ! and the chimneys too squat ! sry for the non-tech description !)
I think I remember the J39 on our Carlisle > Haltwhistle > Hexam?> Allendale trips tho'

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 9:07 pm

Malcolm,

If you wish to identify the class of a locomotive from its running number, may I recommend that you get hold of an Ian Allan ABC Combined Volume if you do not already have one. These give all the BR locos and their classes and descriptions. They were updated twice a year and are available on e-bay secondhand, or you can also get reprints for about £10.
You need to get an edition for round about the year that you are interested in, because previously extinct classes are eliminated, and of course yet to be ordered locos are not listed.
Have a look at Abebooks for example
:http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Searc ... ortby=3&x= 54
When I was a trainspotter, these little books were my constant companions, and I still have them with all my cops underlined in biro in the traditional manner.

Colombo

Bullhead · Post by **Bullhead** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:30 pm

Colombo wrote:If you wish to identify the class of a locomotive from its running number, may I recommend that you get hold of an Ian Allan ABC Combined Volume if you do not already have one?
Colombo

A quick search of eBay two minutes ago revealed 102 "abc" items under transportation/rail, some of which are the Combined Volume editions which cover all the Big Four and post-nationalisation locos - steam, diesel, and electric, and which I'd recommend. £10 should get you one.

Colombo wrote:When I was a trainspotter, these little books were my constant companions, and I still have them with all my cops underlined in biro in the traditional manner.

So do I. Mind, I wish I still had my notebooks too, though - I'd be interested to see how often class 31 D5856 was the first thing I saw at Newcastle Central station, and to relive my trips to York, Tinsley, Kingmoor and the like.

Ptarmigan · Post by **Ptarmigan** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 2:55 am

Colombo wrote:I can't quite make out the number on the buffer beam but in 1948 there were still two of these shedded at Carlisle (Canal), LNER 9635 and 9642,

etc

I forgot to say :
I tried sharpening and stuff but it only enhanced the jpeg artifacts

I have emailed the webmaster to see if he has a larger (more detailed) raw version.
No worries, at this stage the class is the main of what I needed to know, all I want now is a modelmaker supplying them

Thanks for all your help.

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:57 am

Malcolm,

I am not sure if anybody has ever produced a D31 Kit. The nearest that I can find is a body line kit for a D29 in 4 mm scale from Kit Connections. The boiler is slightly larger than on a D31.

http://www.thekitconnection.com/products.htm

Colombo

Ptarmigan · Post by **Ptarmigan** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 1:44 pm

That looks good, thanks for the link and thanks for all your help/suggestions.
I had a reply from that other website about the picture, sadly the jpg is the only one he has (that he can release)

Colombo · Post by **Colombo** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:34 pm

Malcolm,

The D31s did not carry names but if you should decide to build a D29, you would have the choice of the 14 in the class with names of characters from Sir Walter Scott's novels. Unfortunately, there were none shedded at Carlisle(Canal), but you can always imagine that one has been borrowed from elsewhere.

A quick check reveals that two were at Edinburgh (Haymarket) and 5 at Edinburgh (St Margarets). All these had interesting names which were painted on the leading splashers, rather than being on cast nameplates.

I do not know of anybody supplying the complete names as transfers, so you may have to build them up from individual letters of the right height, shaded, or unshaded, depending on the loco livery/period chosen.

Colombo