LMR Locos north of York

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cooperajn
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LMR Locos north of York

Post by cooperajn » Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:54 pm

Following on from my query about Iron Ore trains, were there any regular or irregular workings of LMR based locos north of York??

I believe the famed Heaton-Red Bank should really have been called the York-Red Bank as I think the train reached its formidable length and became a double header at York.

Thoughts/memories please

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Post by Colombo » Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:04 pm

With regard to the Heaton- Red Bank parcels train. I regularly waited for it at the north end of platform 8 as it often produced surprises. Certainly by that point it had acquired its full length and two locomotives and these could be any permutations at all of B1s, black fives, Jubilees, unrebuilt Patriots, standard 5s and so on. I don't recall any class 6 or 7 motive power between 1957 and 1960. I don't think the train combined at York.

I always thought that the two locos were the ones that had worked back the stock in the opposite direction. I well remember the regular Jubes and Pates at York, including in particular 45517.

I saw a black 5 working an excursion through Pickering to Whitby once, would that count?

I never saw LMR locos on the Darlington line, but there again I did not cycle out there too often.

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Post by cooperajn » Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:28 pm

Regarding the RedBank, I believe I read that it combined at York in a Steam Days article. My assumption on the locos is that York returned any available Manchester area locos and made up the difference with York locos, normally B1s. I cannot recall any photos of LNER locos on the Red Bank which were not York locos??

I was thinking particularly of the ECML, but while LMR based locos were common at Bridlington and Scarborough, I don't think they were at Whitby!

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Post by Colombo » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:32 am

The southbound Heaton Red Bank train approaching Platform 9 on the ECML had to have been combined somewhere else north of York as there was no where north of platforms 8, 9 where this could have occurred.

Some interesting loco combinations from newsgroup photos for you:

22 Aug 59 44207 and 64824 at York

28 May 1966 70018 and 61030 elsewhere.

5 August 1961 48126 and 44735 at Micklefield.

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LMR engines north of York / Red Bank empties

Post by Peterkellettky12 » Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:57 pm

The working that sticks out most in my mind was the Polmadie Royal Scot that appeared on this train 46121, the date I cannot find but I remember well sitting on barrows near the large wooden seat at the north end of platform 9 when this particular working took place. Might well have been 1960 or 61. Peter Kellett

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Post by Colombo » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:47 pm

Peter,

I watched from there many times, as you could also see the goods trains branching off to the Scarborough line. You would miss them from the other end. However did we not then miss the goods coming on the down side and going round the curve towarrds the carriage works?

I have not underlined 46121 in my last 1958/9 Combined volume, so I was not there when you were. Come to think of it, I had stopped spotting trains by 1960/1, but I occasionally took photos and still accompanied the Nunthorpe Railway Society as a senior student on works visits. Otherwise I was chasing skirts, until one caught me.

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LMR locos north of York

Post by Peterkellettky12 » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:54 pm

Yes, indeed the vantage point at the north end of platform nine did mean missing those trains taking the goods avoiding lines, many of which were to dirty to be able to identify from the station though. I don't think there was one point where you could be to capture everything that went on at such a busy station, with loco changes both north and south, terminating trains in the bays and goods trains avoiding the whole complex. Holgate bridge was okay but again you missed the loco changes at the north and any goods trains heading towards Malton. As for chasing skirts..............

Peter Kellett.

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Post by Colombo » Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:29 pm

Peter,

That still has not answered the original question has it. Do you agree that the Heaton - Red Bank train did not combine or change engines at York, and if not, does anybody out there know the answer?

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LMR based locos north of York

Post by cooperajn » Fri Dec 23, 2005 1:01 pm

Can anyone lay their hands on the article(s) on the Red Bank in Steam Days two or three years ago? I saved them but cannot now find them.
I believe there was a reference to a significant increase in the lenght of the train at York. It wouldn't be unreasonable for this to occur in the carriage sidings north of York station.
My personal memories and photos that I can recall do not include any NE power from sheds north of York, which would imply that either LMR based locos worked it south from Heaton - photographic evidence seems to be lacking - or the Heaton pacific (having worked an unremarkable parcels train) came off at York.
Anything more "borrowable" would likely have frequently stayed on the train.

To return to my general question, has anyone memories or photos of LMR based locos around Darlington or Newcastle?
Foreigners tended to be photographed, for example GW locos north of Nottingham - so where is the evidence?

On the subject of spotting at York, the North Shed yard took some beating. The locos off all(?) the passenger trains working into York would go onto shed, and most goods trains takiing the avoiding lines were re-engined as well - except for the express goods which tended to go through the station and past the North Shed.

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LMR locos north of York

Post by Peterkellettky12 » Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:31 pm

After checking one of my few WTT's (Passenger Trains Doncaster - Marshall Meadows summer 1958) and with the help of the listmaster on Yahoo Group BritishRailways ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BritishRailways/ )
it would appear that the stock from the 00:12 Manchester Exchange - Newcastle returned south to York Clifton as part of train 39 the 09:35 Delaval Sidings to Holloway behind a Gateshead A2 to York where arrival was 12:29. The train was reformed at Clifton with the Manchester vans going forward at 14:30 with new engines as train 3049 14:30 York Clifton - Red Bank, the remainder of train 39, with any additional stock attached at York, then went forward from Clifton at 16:05 passing Selby at 16:28 and entering the Eastern Region at 16:48 when it cleared Shaftholme Junction. The last entry in this WTT is Doncaster at 16:57 to detach. Adding another uncertainty, I think that once reformed in Clifton, train 39 was used to convey stock ex York Carriage Works south.

Sorry I do not have any photographs of LMR based engines north of York but could dig out some workings that I saw or have read about if anyone is interested?

Peter K.

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LMR based locos north of York

Post by cooperajn » Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:59 pm

Thank you Peter, you have confirmed my suspicion about the Red Bank - so the familiar "Heaton-Red Bank" is literally incorrect. My supposition that York had to use its own locos in absence of two LMR locos from the Manchester would obviously make sense - one of apparently many unbalanced workings by York locos.

I would certainly be interested in anything else you can come up with.
It is interesting after all these years to realise how little the pre Nationalisation boundaries had broken down.

But were there any regular, or at least common workings?
We know of the trains to the coast, which had probably existed to a slightly lesser degree in LMS days, but what about regular specials?
Pigeon specials; army workings to Catterick??

many thanks
tony
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Post by Colombo » Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:25 am

Tony,

In North Eastern Steam, by Maurice Johnson, Steam Portfolio no.5 published by Ian Allan, there is a photograph of 45562, Alberta, being coaled on North Blyth shed on 10th June 1967, having worked a railtour.

Also there were quite a few Ivatt class 4 moguls allocated to NE sheds, various class 4 2-6-4T engines were also allocated to NE sheds and worked along the coast from Middlesborough to Scarborough and also around Hull. There were Jinties at York and Starbeck shed as well.

I can't recall seeing parcels trains being marshalled at Clifton carriage sidings, but that does not mean it did not happen, I suppose. I do recall reading an article about the Redbank, but it is not in any of my copies of Steam Days. Neither is it recorded in the Back Track Index, so could it be in Steam World?

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LMR locos north of York

Post by Peterkellettky12 » Sat Dec 24, 2005 4:55 pm

Here are some notes from 1957.

26Jan - 45741 (Bushbury) and 44805, 45268 (Saltley) were reported as working Birmingham - Middlesborough excursions throughout, for an F.A Cup Third Round Tie involving Aston Villa and Middlesborough.

09Feb - 42770 (Manningham) arrived in Hull with an excursion from Keighley in conjunction with a Rugby League fixture.

14 Feb - 44845 (Newton Heath) appeared on one of the Hull - Brough workmen's trains.

10Jun - 48650 (Westhouses) was the unusual choice of motive power for a Huddersfield - Bridlington excursion.

23Jun - 45576 (Millhouses) reached Newcastle with an excursion from Chesterfield, as did 45042 (Patricroft) with another excursion from Manchester. On the same date 48024 (Mansfield) must have been borrowed by York shed to work a goods to Heaton.

30Jun - Terminating in York with an excursion from Blackpool was Polmadie based 72003.

07Jul - The regular Chesterfield - Newcastle excursion produced 45641 (Kentish Town) on Tyneside.

03Aug - Another 8F, 48508 (Canklow) worked the 09:29 Scarborough - Manchester from the coast. While a Crosti 9F, 92024 (Wellingborough) was employed on the 08:25 Leicester - Scarborough as far as York who turned it round to return with the 13:18 Darlington - Birmingham at least as far as Sheffield Midland.

18Aug - The excursion from Chesterfield provided the sight of another Jubilee, 45594 (Millhouse), on Tyneside.

10 to 13Sep - York shed must have been short of home grown produce as they turned out Newton Heath locos 45225 on the 10th, 45702 on the 12th and 45671 on the 13th to work the 07:15 York - Harrogate. The next leg of the diagram was the Up Yorkshire Pullman from the Spa Town to Leeds.

Also a point that migth be of interest is that Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 no. 43057 never had anything to do with the LMR other than being produced from one of their designs! Built at Doncaster Plant and delivered new in Sep 1950 to Darlington to moved allocations 12 times within the North Eastern Region before being sold to Drapers of Hull as scrap.

Hope that the above is of some interest. And a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all.
Peter K.

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Post by Colombo » Sat Dec 24, 2005 6:49 pm

Peter's comment about Clan 72003 at York on 30th June 1957 is quite a coincidence, because I have a photograph of 72008, Clan McLeod at York on 30th June 1959.

I copped 72005 Clan McGregor at York on 11.10.58

Most of the Ivatt's on the NE strenth were built at Darlington or Doncaster.

MR 1000 brought a railtour to York on 30.8.59, the reporting number on the smokebox door seems to be W985.

On 1.11.58 I visited Darlington Works and shed, but did not cop a single LMR engine except 43050, and I think this one had a Darlington Works plate and was on a local passenger.

Does anybody recognise themselves on the attached photo of the Darlington Shed visit?

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cooperajn
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LMR based locos north of York

Post by cooperajn » Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:08 pm

Very interesting; it happened but it was unusual.
The NE : SW trains retained their LNER/LMS working patterns, and it would appear that most if not all goods did the same.
Of course it took a change in regional boundaries before pacifics were used on the Settle and Carlisle. Good for our spotting days in York, but some of those 4.6.2s really ought to have gone to the WCML!

Many thanks and Merry Christmas.

Tony
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