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The Talisman

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:36 pm
by Blink Bonny
Ay up!

Just rediscovered those Talisman coaches I bought off Atlantic which, along with the two H-D Super Detail coaches with Talisman roofboards on my bench for repainting, set me off thinking.

Does anyone have any good piccies of this train? I am interested in either the Mk1 period, pre-Mk1 or transition periods.

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:54 pm
by strang steel
There is a postcard for sale on this site

http://scartists.com/index.php?page=sho ... &Itemid=71


Which if you click on the thumbnail, does blow up to a reasonable size and shows 60028 leaving Kings Cross with the train.
The caption suggests the date to be 1960, but I think it may be earlier than that because the loco still has the early BR totem on the tender. I dont know if there is a published date for when the new totem was applied, but I would have thought it was prior to 1960.

The train (the part that is visible) does seem to be made up of Mk1 stock, so presumably it was one of the early candidates for the new coaches.

Another one with 60031 (also with early BR totem) is here:-

http://www.flickr.com/photos/70607220@N04/6801014950/

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:36 pm
by Hatfield Shed
The 1956 - 61 years of the steam worked Talisman used very mixed sets, notable for the inclusion of artic Gresley twin firsts from the Coronation, Thompson catering vehicles, and BR mk1s. Form North to South I believe the typical formation was BSK, SK, SK, Thompson RSO, Thompson RF, Gresley twin FK, BSK; that's what I use to represent the train at present, but would welcome better advice.

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:54 pm
by robertcwp
These notes may help. Right click and do Save Target As:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/32711444/Articl ... 4-6-11.pdf

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:09 pm
by Green Nigel
Just a quick look in the summer 1958 carriage working notice gives the formation of the 4pm departure from Kings Cross as BSO / SK / SO / RU / FO - FO (twin) CK / BSO if that is any help.

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:03 am
by Hatfield Shed
I always wonder with this service why BR didn't reinstate the full Coronation set. Possibly too great an admission that BR had made no progress at all despite 8 years lavish public funding, as compared to the relatively impoverished LNER twenty years before?

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:22 pm
by Saint Johnstoun
I think the reason why the full Coronation set was not reinstated was the need to put as many bums on seats as stock would allow, hence the use of 'Newton' stock (or Thompson to most of us). I recommend watching Elizabethan Express the BTF Film as you can see the stock of the era in action. There was a certain resistance against the use of the pre-war articulated stock following a fire and it was split up for use in diverse places.

I will do some calculations with regard to a complete Coronation set vis a vis the Talisman rake and report in due course.

Gresleys all electric catering cars were also not popular as the imposed an additional load on the train. BR opted for anthracite and later LPG for cooking. The Silver Jubilee and Coronation sets were designed for a meals at all seats service which was just not practicable in the post war 1950s.

There was also the move towards all steel stock (BR Mk1) which was considered to be safer in event of an accident. The ghosts of Harrow and elsewhere were still around in 1953.

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:32 pm
by Blink Bonny
Ay up!

That's great, many thanks all! Looks like I have some coaches to build....

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 2:13 pm
by Saint Johnstoun
A full Coronation set (less observation car) seated 138 third and 48 first class passengers with 30 third class seats reserved for meals. The 1957 rake for the Talisman provided 215 third class seats and 62 first class seats. 44 first class seats were available to serve meals at the seats, and a further 30 third class seats were available for serving meals.

By using two corridor thirds and a corridor composite, in theory the raising of armrests could have provided a further number of seats. But, according to the 1958-9 timetable, accomodation was limited to the number of seats available and all seats were reservable at the cost of 2/- per seat. Whether seat reservations were mandatory on the Talisman is not clear as obviously no standing passengers or increase in seating capacity as normally encouraged by making seats for 3 into 4 as suggested above was allowed.

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 5:56 pm
by hq1hitchin
Saint Johnstoun wrote: according to the 1958-9 timetable, accomodation was limited to the number of seats available and all seats were reservable at the cost of 2/- per seat. Whether seat reservations were mandatory on the Talisman is not clear as obviously no standing passengers or increase in seating capacity as normally encouraged by making seats for 3 into 4 as suggested above was allowed.
Good point - I'd noticed that footnote regarding the Talisman (it appeared for some years, even into Deltic days, I think) before and don't recall any mention of seat reservations being compulsory. I wonder how rigidly this was enforced at Waverley, would they really have refused last minute passengers admission to the train, rather than let a few stand and that way get to London the same day as opposed to cooling their heels and waiting for an overnight service?

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:38 pm
by Saint Johnstoun
It was of course possible to travel on the North Briton which left Waverley at 5.15pm but did not reach Kings X until 2.55am. As Waverley was a closed station I presume that tickets and reservations would be checked at the barrier and I would think that the ticket collectors would know how many passengers were pre-booked. Sadly the two gents who could have answered the question for me are now working in the big booking office in the sky!

The first time I saw a hand tally in use by staff was at Waverley so I suspect there must have been some control.

I only know of the control used on the CSP (BR) Clyde Steamers where two queues were formed, those pre-booked and those without tickets.

I would imagine that the booking office at Waverley would know what they had sold in the way of tickets and I would expect that they would advise booking seats at the same time. In a pre computer age how agents and other stations could be accounted for on the day of travel I don't know. Unless of course agents and other stations had to phone in their ticket sales prior to a certain time on the day.

After a consultation with a friend who does know something about this it would seem that agents and other stations would have to phone Waverley re reservations if you booked on the day of travel.

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:21 pm
by Hatfield Shed
robertcwp wrote:These notes may help...
Oh yes, thanks.

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:38 am
by robertcwp
Here is the Talisman Winter 1957-8 - asterisk * indicates BR Standard Stock:

Image

Coronation Summer 1939:

Image

Silver Jubilee Summer 1939 - italics indicate fluid dining - Silver Jubilee was compartment stock apart from the diners and semi-open first and did not have at-seat service:

Image

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:22 am
by Saint Johnstoun
Thanks for these interesting documents. It would seem that the Talisman was 'reservations only' from the way I read what is there!

Re: The Talisman

Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:56 am
by hq1hitchin
Saint Johnstoun wrote:Thanks for these interesting documents. It would seem that the Talisman was 'reservations only' from the way I read what is there!
I think you'll find that the term 'Seat Reservation train' meant that it was one on which seats might be reserved as opposed to one where no reservations could be made. Like you say, the blokes who could have given us the definitive answers are few and far between now. Can remember travelling back from Ft William to London and beyond in Deltic days, can't recall having to go through a barrier at Waverley to join the 16:00 Talisman, or am I mistaken? I certainly wouldn't have had a reserved seat as I was travelling on a free pass