LNER branchline passenger stock

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john coffin
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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by john coffin » Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:28 pm

Interesting, I took the quote from the Navy site, and indeed other sources. Oak does not last as long as teak in the sea, and whilst Victory is indeed at Portsmouth, it has been re-timbered on a number of occasions. Any reports on the building of timber ships in the 18th and 19th Centuries carry constant comments about the shortness of the oak lifespan. Remember also Victory consumed 40,000 trees in its building, that is a considerable part of the English forests :shock:

Both GNR and LNER pre steel carriages were specified with American White Oak underframes and or parts thereof that is true.

Oak is indeed a nice product to work with, although American White does tear in the most awkward of places at times, as I have found on a cabinet I am making now :roll: But European Brown is so expensive nowadays as to make certain items too costly to make. Makes nice dovetails.

As for teak, sadly have not worked with it, but it is indeed a product that would have one sharpening more than once a day.

Paul

60117 Bois Roussel

Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:21 am

Hmm… this is a long running thread and I'm not sure that the original question ever got answered! May I offer some observations, based on the proposal of a 1930s GN Section branch line in the Midlands?

To begin with, are we talking about:
- a branch line with a terminus, or
- a minor line without a terminus?
I'm not splitting hairs here, merely showing that there's more scope than may meet the eye, especially if you choose to model a through station.

If we focus on what may be called the local traffic on such lines, what I'm finding (the results will go in "LNER Passenger Trains & Formations: The Secondary Services") is almost entirely pre-Grouping stock at the bottom of the cascade sequence, ie. the oldest stock still turning a wheel.

Here's a formation from a late 1930s photo of a train between Grantham-Leicester (sorry it's compressed; the system won't hold the tabs I inserted):

BC Howlden 45ft
T (6w) Howlden
B (6w) Howlden
-----------------------------
BG Gresley 61'6"
B (6w) Howlden

The dividing line is tentative on my part, suggesting that the leading carriages may have been the normal service train and the trailing ones, additions. In charge was a J39.

By the way, a picture at Mill Hill earlier in this thread shows an ex-6w quad-art set in London Suburban service - also full of ancient stock into the 1930s, including unarticulated 4w sets. Away from London, all the way up to the West Riding, ex-6w twins and triplets (and longer) were used heavily with only the odd Howlden bogie carriage. For example:

BT-C-BT
BT-CL

Danny Pinnock (D&S) has covered this area well with his kits. It IS modellable!

PS - As regards carriages cascaded from the NE Area in the 1930s, they were in good condition and as far as I can tell so far, not used in branch lines but in intermediate trains on the main lines. I am not seeing licence to mix pre-Grouping carriages widely further downstream. If you look at trains on the minor LD&EC line you'll see elderly ex-GCR carriages in a similar fashion quietly ending their days.

60117 Bois Roussel

Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:10 pm

If I can get this right, here's a clearer version of the picture shown earlier on this stream at Mill Hill, taken in 1937 by Henry Casserley. Image
The station lay on a trio of London suburban branches that came off the line from King's Cross at Finsbury Park - for Alexandra Palace, Edgeware, and High Barnet. Quad-art sets of ex-6w carriages were used in pairs, as well as the more modern and permanently-coupled quad-arts, also <corrected caption> triplets, of which this is one behind N2 4738 and useful to see because similar quadruplet and triplet sets also worked in the West Riding conurbation.
Last edited by 60117 Bois Roussel on Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

2512silverfox

Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by 2512silverfox » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:50 pm

That illustrated is a triplet made up from old rigid eight wheelers not 6 wheel bodies.

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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by JASd17 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:20 pm

Note also that it still has all 3 classes marked. Before 1-1-1938?

The rigid 5 compartment brakes were a favourite for conversion to artic. sets. See GN218O and 218P quints as well. John Edgson of Isinglass did drawings of them. Still available via his son Andy.

The photo is a Henry Casserley

John

60117 Bois Roussel

Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:22 pm

Thank you, yes, it was a triplet to:
BT-C-BT
These were also rostered over the London branches (I have better pictures of the older quad-art sets). My understanding is that the triplet in the picture was made up from:
42'11 5/8" BT
34'2 1/2" C
34'10 1/2" BT
of which weren't the latter two 6w?

Ahem, I did quote Casserley's name and his date of 1937!

Another good source, arguably the finest, is Terry Henderson's for the GNRS in a series of spiral bound booklets: the Twins and Triplets one is an inch thick. :)

Here is an ER Wethersett view from 1938, also near Mill Hill that shows the aforementioned quad-art:
Image

2512silverfox

Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by 2512silverfox » Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:54 am

I jumped the gun slightly with my comment about ex rigid eight wheelers! The set in HCCs photo is to Diagram 218UU which was made up with two recycled 6 wheelers and one rigid eight wheeler. As Steve has stated BT + C + BT, the BT shown is the ex rigid eight wheeler; the other end is a standard G333 6 wheel brake. Four such sets in all.

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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by robertcwp » Sun May 11, 2014 12:44 pm

60117 Bois Roussel wrote:Thank you, yes, it was a triplet to:
BT-C-BT
These were also rostered over the London branches (I have better pictures of the older quad-art sets). My understanding is that the triplet in the picture was made up from:
42'11 5/8" BT
34'2 1/2" C
34'10 1/2" BT
of which weren't the latter two 6w?

Ahem, I did quote Casserley's name and his date of 1937!

Another good source, arguably the finest, is Terry Henderson's for the GNRS in a series of spiral bound booklets: the Twins and Triplets one is an inch thick. :)

Here is an ER Wethersett view from 1938, also near Mill Hill that shows the aforementioned quad-art:
Image
Fascinating photo - would this have been the Edgware Branch Set or a through working from King's Cross?

Looking forward to seeing 'LNER Passenger Trains & Formations: The Secondary Services' - is there a publication date yet?

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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by manna » Mon May 12, 2014 10:52 am

G'Day Gents

I'll second that, great pic, I'm just trying to work out where it is !!, seeing that it's being worked chimney first, is it working to Edgware or Barnet :!: or are we being fooled, that could be Mill Hill East's gasworks siding.

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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by robertcwp » Mon May 12, 2014 9:25 pm

manna wrote:G'Day Gents

I'll second that, great pic, I'm just trying to work out where it is !!, seeing that it's being worked chimney first, is it working to Edgware or Barnet :!: or are we being fooled, that could be Mill Hill East's gasworks siding.

manna
It might be this bridge:

ImageBunnsLane_1956 by robertcwp, on Flickr

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manna
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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by manna » Tue May 13, 2014 9:27 pm

G'Day Gents

Thanks for the pic Robert, but I don't think that's the same bridge, the Bunns Rd bridge, has the low parapet and fencing, in the 1950's, where as the older pic (1920's-30's) has the higher parapet, the lay of the land is different to.

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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by robertcwp » Wed May 14, 2014 6:16 am

manna wrote:G'Day Gents

Thanks for the pic Robert, but I don't think that's the same bridge, the Bunns Rd bridge, has the low parapet and fencing, in the 1950's, where as the older pic (1920's-30's) has the higher parapet, the lay of the land is different to.

manna
Thanks, I didn't think it matched.

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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by robertcwp » Wed May 14, 2014 9:19 pm

Having consulted with some friends who know the area, the bridge is Bunns Lane but it is the more easterly of the two bridges that carried that road over the line (the photo in my collection is of the other one which still stands, by the former Mill Hill The Hale station). This one was east of the Midland line and has now disappeared as the area has altered as a result of the construction of the M1.

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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by manna » Thu May 15, 2014 12:18 am

G'Day Gents

The picture that you posted is a very good pic of Bunns Rd bridge, you can still see the remains of the 'Hale station, through the center arch, between that arch and the one on the left, you can still see the faint outline of a white backing mark for a signal. I think there was a small signal cabin under the left hand arch, in GN days, but I haven't been able to confirm that yet, due to the shortage of good pictures from that era, of 'the Hale'.

Also of interest is the Underground cabling to the left of the pic. and are those small boys on a footpath or are the trespassing !!!, to the right, where the young saplings are growing, was the other trackbed that the Underground put in just before the outbreak of WW2.

Thanks, manna
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Re: LNER branchline passenger stock

Post by 1H was 2E » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:22 pm

60117 Bois Roussel wrote:
Here's a formation from a late 1930s photo of a train between Grantham-Leicester (sorry it's compressed; the system won't hold the tabs I inserted):

BC Howlden 45ft
T (6w) Howlden
B (6w) Howlden
-----------------------------
BG Gresley 61'6"
B (6w) Howlden

The dividing line is tentative on my part, suggesting that the leading carriages may have been the normal service train and the trailing ones, additions. In charge was a J39.
Had this at the back of my mind, because I had a Carriage Working for this area somewhere, and now I've found it!

It's dated 6/120/47, and at that date the workings were as follows;
Circuit 103 left Leicester B. Rd at 7 5 am with circuit 104 attached.
On arrival at John o'Gaunt (7 32) circuit 104 was detached; circuit 103 left J o'G at 7 37, arriving at Grantham at 8 45am. It returned from Grantham at 7 10 pm, arriving back at L'ester B. Rd at 8.45.
Meanwhile, circuit 104 left J o'G at 7 50, returning to Lester B Rd. It then did an SO trip to Melton at 1 pm, and another EWD trip to Melton at 6 10 pm, finally arriving back at L'ester at 7 48 pm.

This is the only Leicester - Grantham (and back) working shown, so possibly it was the train in your photograph. The two sets ran together to provide both a through service to Grantham and stock for a worker's service back into Leicester. Incidentally, by 1947 both circuits were "Twin BT (6) CL (2-5) which may help to identify the specific stock.

But also please bear in mind that the reference to "sets" does not mean the same physical vehicles each day. As shown in the book, set 103 was worked by the coaches that from set 104 the previous day and they went on to work circuit 104 the next day; similarly, circuit 104 worked 103 the previous day and worked 104 the next day.

It would not normally be practicable for a set of coaches to remain on the same circuit every day because it would not be back at its morning starting point at the end of the day. In this case, both circuits are back at L'ester but the sets alternate presumably to equalise mileage.
Ad hoc strengthening was not normally done lightly, I think. There is reference to GENERAL INSTRUCTIONS RELATING TO THE CONTROL AND DISTRIBUTION OF COACHING ROLLING STOCK dated April 1941 which presumably set out the procedure, and if likanyone has it perhaps they could share details (PS Capitals as shown in the carriage working book - I don't normally shout)

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