Push-pull trains

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Majormagna
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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by Majormagna » Thu Dec 26, 2019 11:06 pm

I assume that in Autocoach form, the non-driving end wopuld be fitted with two air pipes, one for brakes and one to control the locomotive from the carriage. No point having it on the driving end because, as far as I can tell, the NER never doubled-up autocoaches.

This photo of a BTP on an autocoach shows it with two air pipes.
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mick b
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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by mick b » Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:53 am

Thanks , I believe however the pipes are always fitted at both ends of a vehicle for shunting ?? The photo shows a different diagram which would be have been built later than the Clerestory version I am modelling.


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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by jwealleans » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:38 pm

Were the D116s withdrawn along with the BTPs? The last of those went around 1929 IIRC, from Guisborough.

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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by Majormagna » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:13 am

mick b wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:53 am
Thanks , I believe however the pipes are always fitted at both ends of a vehicle for shunting ??
It's unlikely that the "push-pull" air pipe would have been present on the driver end as it wouldn't have really been usable or required.
mick b wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:53 am
The photo shows a different diagram which would be have been built later than the Clerestory version I am modelling.
True, but the system was the same, as I've seen both the clerestory and semi-elliptical roof designs on the same train (sandwiching the BTP).
jwealleans wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:38 pm
Were the D116s withdrawn along with the BTPs? The last of those went around 1929 IIRC, from Guisborough.
Sort of. The push-pull gear and driving controls were removed, and they either became brake thirds/composites or luggage thirds/composites.
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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by mick b » Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:32 pm

Majormagna wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:13 am
mick b wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:53 am
Thanks , I believe however the pipes are always fitted at both ends of a vehicle for shunting ??
It's unlikely that the "push-pull" air pipe would have been present on the driver end as it wouldn't have really been usable or required.

Mick B
Pipe ? They are Vacumn and Westinghouse Brake pipes , the push pull air system operated via the Westinghouse brake all the photos i have seen have the Westinghouse connector fitted on the left side looking from the front..
mick b wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 8:53 am
The photo shows a different diagram which would be have been built later than the Clerestory version I am modelling.
True, but the system was the same, as I've seen both the clerestory and semi-elliptical roof designs on the same train (sandwiching the BTP).

Mick B

Please post a photo or link, I never seen them in mixed rakes in a photo.I already have elliptical roof D.162 built.
jwealleans wrote:
Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:38 pm
Were the D116s withdrawn along with the BTPs? The last of those went around 1929 IIRC, from Guisborough.
Sort of. The push-pull gear and driving controls were removed, and they either became brake thirds/composites or luggage thirds/composites.
Thanks

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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by Majormagna » Sat Dec 28, 2019 11:25 pm

mick b wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:32 pm
Pipe ? They are Vacumn and Westinghouse Brake pipes , the push pull air system operated via the Westinghouse brake all the photos i have seen have the Westinghouse connector fitted on the left side looking from the front.
I always assumed that the BTPs push-pull gear was worked by a seperate air system, hence why I thought the BTPs so fitted had two air pipes. However you may be right in that they're simply Air and Vac brake pipes.

So how DID the push-pull system on a BTP work? All via bell codes between the carriage and loco cab?

mick b wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 1:32 pm
Please post a photo or link, I never seen them in mixed rakes in a photo.I already have elliptical roof D.162 built.
Not the best photo, but in the background of this shot of Whitby shed, you can see a BTP dandwiched between an elliptical roof and a clerestory carriage.
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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by mick b » Sun Dec 29, 2019 9:02 am

Ta for photo, British Railway Journal article just says the push pull system was part of the Westinghouse brake system.

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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by Majormagna » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:00 pm

I'm still convinced that it was a seperate pipe worked off the main Westinghouse pump that was used to control the loco from the carriage, the photo below, dated 1906, shows a BTP with two air pipes (though not on a push-pull service), at this point in time, only express passenger locos meant for use with ECJS and NE&GN Joint Stock were dual braked as far as I'm aware.

Also another photo I've dug out of an external hard drive, another (better) example of clerestory and elliptical roof stock being used on the same service.
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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by mick b » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:23 pm

Perhaps the cable hanging down on the Bunker side is a clue ?

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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by Majormagna » Sun Dec 29, 2019 10:57 pm

mick b wrote:
Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:23 pm
Perhaps the cable hanging down on the Bunker side is a clue ?
Perhaps, but I'd have thought that with the loco in a push-pull formation, any required connections would already be made. I have a photo of another BTP with a similar item draped on the handrail, but it looks more like a fire iron to me, modified to work in the limited cab space.

Wikipedia (Not the best source but worth considering) states:
The driver had control of the regulator and reverser by means of a mechanical connection running under the coach and connecting to the engine using a form of universal joints. The driver also had full (Westinghouse) brake control via a second air pipe connection to the engine. This high pressure air supply also worked a whistle mounted above the driving compartment.
If correct, there WERE two air pipes between the loco and carriage, but it was only to control the Westinghouse pump, and supply air to a whistle.

And now I know what I'm looking for, it seems that the BTP I posted earlier (December 26th 11:06 pm) shows two universal joints either side of the locos air pipes, IN the bufferbeam, I assume these were either pulled in and out or rotated to control the regulator and reverser.
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billbedford
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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by billbedford » Mon Dec 30, 2019 10:38 am

What you have on this bufferbeam are a westinghouse brake pipe, an air pipe for the push pull regulator and a connection for the steam heating pipe, the bags for this latter were invariably removed during the summer. Outside of these are two eye bolts which originally held saftey chains.

The controls in the driving coach consisted of brake and regulator only, AFAIK none of the systems provinded controls for the reverser.
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Majormagna
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Re: Push-pull trains

Post by Majormagna » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:32 pm

I know that was the way the LNERs later version of autotrain worked, though supplementing vac for air, but there's precious little info on the NERs system.

I'm a bit disheartened to find only passing references in the NER Record books, photos of the driving ends of carriages, but no mention of the controls in either tjat carriage or loco volumes.

The only locos I ever see what you say are former safety chain connections ARE auto-fitted locos, but with the small amount of info I've found so far, you could easily be correct.

EDIT: After asking online for photos of BTPs, Kestrel Railway Books on Twitter found a photo of one that's had an... incident.

It clearly shows that at least one of the protrusions is a universal joint of some description, other research shows that the safety chains were mounted lower than these too.
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