Twelve wheel coaches

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earlswood nob
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Twelve wheel coaches

Post by earlswood nob » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:23 am

Good morning all
I was looking at the Isinglass catalogue for a locomotive drawing and spotted several 12 wheel ECJS coaches.
Does anyone know the history of these? I don't I've ever seen one in model form, and certainly never in the flesh.
I seem to recall that LNWR had some 12 wheel coaches, and 12 wheel Pullmans rings some bells, but that is all.
Earlswood Nob

jwealleans
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by jwealleans » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:25 am

I don't I've ever seen one in model form
Like this?

Image

ECJS Luggage Composite - I forget the diagram number. EdgeHill8A of this parish built the same coach at about the same time.

D & S did some in the past and Peter K (like the one above) are still available. Bill may list some as well.

There was a Back Track article about 12 wheel coaches in the UK a few years ago.
Last edited by jwealleans on Fri Dec 21, 2018 7:50 am, edited 2 times in total.

2512silverfox

Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 2512silverfox » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:58 am

Many of the original 12 wheelers built by the GNR and ECJS were rebuilt under Gresley with long wheel base four wheel bogies and remained in service thus until the late 30s and possibly longer. A couple of 12 wheel catering vehicles remained as such into BR stock.

65447
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 65447 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:17 am

The usual sources:

Ken Hoole, The Illustrated History of East Coast Joint Stock, OPC, 1993, ISBN 0-86093-430-6
Michael Harris, Great Northern Railway and East Coast Joint Stock Carriages from 1905, Oakwood Press, 1995, ISBN 0 85361 477 6

Bill Bedford
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Bill Bedford » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:42 am

While the Hoole book gives details of the ECJS clerestory carriages, the Harris doesn't. Harris' book starts at the point where Gresley took over and so misses these coaches. There appears to be no definitive description of any pre-Gresley GN carriages.

jwealleans
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by jwealleans » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:06 pm

I'd go along with that. The most informative sources for modelling are the diagram books issued by the Great Northern Railway Society, which include photographs and renumbering information but there is a gap for a published narrative.

earlswood nob
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by earlswood nob » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:20 pm

G'day all
The coach looks terrific JW, and thanks to everyone for their replies.
I have found PeterK's coaches on the Kemilway site, I am guessing that the etches are not supplied with bogies. Where would one get the six wheel bogies from? Comet do LMS and GWR 6 wheel bogies, but I haven't found LNER (or constituents) 6 wheel bogies.
I am so tempted to build one (or more) of the four that PeterK has listed. I shouldn't as I have so many locos to finish, and some still to start.
Perhaps I've never grown up as my school reports used to say; "Continually led astray by irresponsible members of the class".
Earlswood nob

jwealleans
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by jwealleans » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:40 pm

You can read up the construction on th eearly pages of my WB thread. You only get sides ends and clerestory as I recall. I have another one whoch Rob Pulham sold me to have a go at.

The only accurate bogies for these vehicles were produced by Dan Pinnock in his kits. I used WCJS/LNWR bogies from 247 on this one and will do so on the others when they get finished.

There are more 12 wheelers than you think - royal coaches, sleepers, diners (NER bowstring diners make a very distinctive vehicle) and IIRC some really ugly NB coaches of a type which slips my mind.

65447
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 65447 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:06 pm

Bill Bedford wrote:While the Hoole book gives details of the ECJS clerestory carriages, the Harris doesn't. Harris' book starts at the point where Gresley took over and so misses these coaches. There appears to be no definitive description of any pre-Gresley GN carriages.
The reason that I included that Harris book is that there is some material in it - not a lot I agree but nevertheless some.

65447
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 65447 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:09 pm

jwealleans wrote:There are more 12 wheelers than you think - royal coaches, sleepers, diners (NER bowstring diners make a very distinctive vehicle) and IIRC some really ugly NB coaches of a type which slips my mind.
The 5 NBR steel composite dining cars built 1919 by Cravens.

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notascoobie
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by notascoobie » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:50 pm

Jonathan wrote:

There are more 12 wheelers than you think - royal coaches, sleepers, diners.....

That set me thinking. Gresley articulated twins :lol:

Lovely model from Jonathan.

David Jenkinson wrote several articles about the LNWR 12-wheelers and Pullman cars in Railway Backtrack, but the definitive East Coast sources are Hoole and Harris as mentioned previously.

Regards,

Vernon

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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by john coffin » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:30 pm

All the pre Gresley GNR 12 wheelers were Clerestories, and Silver Fox is correct that some were rebuilt at various times post 1905 to have "normal Gresley" rooves.

It seems that building Clerestories allowed various railways to build longer carriages, I think the rooves were lighter because they had less wood in them. However, many of these still had wooden underframes so I often wonder where the 65 foot long teak beams came from so late in the game.

However, rather like the transition from 4 to 6 wheeled carriages, then on to 8 wheeled rigid, and finally to 4 wheel bogie, there was a problem in terms of the carrying capacity of the smaller bogies, so they needed 6 wheeled bogies. So you can see some 4 wheeled carriages longer than early 6 wheelers, in particular on the Midland.This is also about the time when steel was replacing cast iron or wrought iron for many things, and cast steel had become more popular, so the 6 wheeled bogie was somewhat easier to create than it had been. Mind you, one had been patented by Joseph Wright in the 1840/50's.

This period, from 1880 to 1910 saw some really interesting transitions in British Carriages, and the GNR story is particularly interesting, but I am not sure there is a big enough market for the GNR on its own, however much we within the GNRS might wish it so. But a "green un" style series might work.
Mind you if someone can produce a book about the Great North Of Scotland carriages, who knows??

Paul

earlswood nob
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by earlswood nob » Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:46 pm

Evenin' all
Thanks a lot to everyone for their interesting replies.
JW's 12 wheel carriages look a treat. It is going to be difficult to resist buying some of PeterK's productions.
Perhaps it would be my start to etched kit construction, which I've never plucked up the courage to try.
I found JW's thread on 12w coach construction, and it makes my mouth water at the thought of such lovely carriages behind a GNR small atlantic or something similair.
I might well have to order some Isinglass drawings.
Earlswood nob

Bryan
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Bryan » Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:02 pm

There used to be a 12 wheel sleeper coach on the NYMR
Do not know any detail other than it was LMS design and turned out in 1951.
Maybe Sawdust or 60004 may know more.

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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Wavey » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:15 pm

john coffin wrote: This period, from 1880 to 1910 saw some really interesting transitions in British Carriages, and the GNR story is particularly interesting, but I am not sure there is a big enough market for the GNR on its own, however much we within the GNRS might wish it so. But a "green un" style series might work.


Paul
Well I'd certainly purchase such a publication if it were produced!

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