Twelve wheel coaches

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1H was 2E
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 1H was 2E » Tue Jun 11, 2013 9:31 pm

The 12wheel LMS sleeper mentioned was one of the batch built in 1951-2 which were probably the last 12 wheelers built for service on BR. Most lasted 'til about '71 (in blue & grey) and a number was bought by various enthusiasts' groups, usually for dormitory accommodation. Sadly, the ones I've tracked down recently have deteriorated.
But the main purpose of this post is to jog the memories of anyone else who saw 12 wheelers running at speed in an express. Obviously, the sleepers were generally nocturnal but 12 wheel kitchen/ dining cars lasted on the LM Western Lines 'til about '63. My recollection is that the (8 wheel) coaches around them would be hunting around but the 12 wheeler would be making stately progress, with no fuss and only a gentle, regular movement confined to the vertical plane. Easy to see why so many dining cars were on 6 wheel bogies.

john coffin
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by john coffin » Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:34 pm

It takes a fair time to produce any kind of book. However one of the main problems with the Clerestory stock of all types is finding adequate photos, and more data.

For instance the first clerestories on the GNR were produced by a company called Craven Brothers of Sheffield who started life in 1867, but finding anything out about their history is nigh on impossible (unless you know better!) Have so far found nothing in initial research through Sheffield libraries, and the Industrial Museum seems less like a research facility these days. It is generally accepted that Clerestories were first used as an answer to the Pullman carriages, but there was another American around the time who first produced a luxury coach for the UK. He was an ex American Civil War officer who seems to have as it were gone off the rails. Will find his name later. There was of course another company in Manchester called Cravens, but since the sheffield one lasted until around the second world war you would have hoped there would be some data around.

Actually finding photos of Clerestories on any of the LNER companies is not easy, so if you find some that are not ex NRM, or in readily available books please let us know, they would be gratefully received and used properly to expand the story.

I think there is room for a book about LNER clerestories, but it will not be easy to complete, due to the lack of photos. The biggest problem with most modern books is the lack of "first hand knowledge" and of course much of Doncaster's data was destroyed in the 60's, so if you know anything, let someone else know, if you share, then we do not get a condition where the book is produced and then slagged off for lacking certain data. Better to consider that the very bare data you may know is not known by others than to think "damn if only I had put it forward!"

York has a lot of photos, and some drawings, but much less than we need, so how can you help?

Paul

2512silverfox

Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 2512silverfox » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:21 am

Quite a few of the early Doncaster negatives of 12 wheelers (and other items for that matter) were either lost or damaged over the years, so that the negative register as held by the NRM, which was compiled by Ben Burrell as late as the 1950s, is far from being complete. There are other obviously works photos around which result from individual copies being spirited away and it would be helpful if these could be passed to the NRM for copying.

Some time ago (in 1978) I isolated those in my collection which should now be available through the NRM - one of the best examples was a photo of Steam railmotor No 2 taken from the brake end a copy of which is in HCD Vol 1 - the original print was found in a waste paper bin at the Plant in 1965!

john coffin
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by john coffin » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:46 pm

It is the greatest tragedy of the modern world that everyone who inherits things has heard of ebay, so often quite important collections of photos and documents are broken up without being recorded and their relevance noted in a second place.

It often seems that those who pay the top dollar on ebay for photos and so on, are either magpies looking to keep stuff out of circulation, or people who want to claim their own copyright on stuff they are too young to have undertaken themselves, so they can make money from the use of these images.
We all moan about the NRM, and some of their stuff is really expensive, but it does at least keep things within the public domain.

However, it is useful if people let us know what they have found, and what is freely available, so that we can actually create as complete a picture of these early coaches as is possible. We can of course never get really detailed "works" type photos of anything pre about 1860, so then have to rely on drawings and the written word to describe the early stuff which is a real difficulty.

However, just to really freak people out, I have recently come into possession of a copy of a GER 12 wheel coach which was in fact suburban carriage specifically for the Enfield branch, now that must have been some site. It is not however a clerestory!!

Paul

1H was 2E
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 1H was 2E » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:35 pm

Re Craven Brothers of Sheffield; maybe I'm missing something, but there was a coachbuilder (in the sense of bus bodies) named Cravens that were extant from at least the late '30s 'til the 60s and these were presumably responsible for the eponymous dmu. If you'd experienced one of the latter, I don't think you would have forgotten. They bus part might possibly have become Neepsend and become part of the John Brown group later, but I'm relying only on memory. Further note; I've searched the VCT database. They give 'Cravens' as a builder, and that pulls up several GER coaches and an MSLR one of 1880's - 90's through several LNER ones from 1927; then the Thompson coach on the NYMR through to BR stock. There's no break and no note of there being two different firms.

Andy W
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Andy W » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:26 pm

Cravens ceased production of vehicles in about 1967. They were part of the John Brown engineering group who also brought East Lancs coach builders in the early 1960s. John Brown built bus bodies at a separate site in Sheffield (Neepsend) as an overflow site to the main East Lancs operation in Blackburn. Blackburn was extended after only a few years and Neepsend was closed.

Cravens built their own design of bus bodies at their main plant at Darnall, mainly as a work filling activity when demand was slack, and when that site ceased all activity the railway goodwill seemed to have passed to Metro-Cammell but their records don't seem to have survived.

Cravens built the long lasting A60 stock for LT and, unlike 12 wheeled stock, they had interesting ride qualities at speed! Well built stock though.

john coffin
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by john coffin » Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:41 pm

There were in fact a number of companies called Cravens, who were involved in railway building of some type. Hence the problems in finding the data.

Paul

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sawdust
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by sawdust » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:36 am

john coffin wrote:It is the greatest tragedy of the modern world that everyone who inherits things has heard of ebay, so often quite important collections of photos and documents are broken up without being recorded and their relevance noted in a second place.l
Or worse things end up in the bin. Some very important transfers nearly ended up there a few years ago. But are now in the NYMR archives thanks to a neighbour.

Sawdust.

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manna
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by manna » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:36 pm

G'Day Gents

There are plans, for a GN 12 wheeler, a First class semi-corridor, in 8 wheel rebuilt form (Fox bogies !!) in the Model Railway Constructor, July 1981, I have a copy, in front of me, if anyone would like a scan, PM me.

manna
EDGWARE GN, Steam in the Suburbs.

Wavey
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Wavey » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:03 pm

Interestingly 2 former GNR/ECJS 12 wheelers existed (as grounded bodies) until about 1990. Latterly they were listed as preserved but ultimately the interiors were removed by Resco for use in Mark 11c bodyshells for use on the Royal Scotsman set (I think). Sadly the 2 bodies were later scrapped.
They were GNR BCK 127 of 1899 and ECJS Composite Sleeper 107 of 1901. 107 was used as a house at Easingwold and was lived in until about 1980. It was in very good condition apparently. I read in an old North Eastern Coach Group newsletter that after surveying it they attempted to get the NRM interested.

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52D
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 52D » Sun Jun 16, 2013 6:18 pm

Will have to have a quick look as I can remember in my collection I have an Edwardian pic of an express in Berwick station composed of ECJS.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

earlswood nob
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by earlswood nob » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:51 pm

Evening all
JW's twelve wheel coaches have really got my interest. They are beautiful models, a bit beyond my capabilities at the moment, but I plan to build them at some time in the future.
I was sorting out a cupboard at the weekend and found a box that had several unbuilt Kirk kits behind a pile of books. I thought I'd lost them when I moved 12 years ago, so I was pretty pleased with myself. That did not last long as I started building one yesterday, and dropped my airbrush whilst cleaning it with the nozzle off. I now have an airbrush with a bent needle, but it still works. It was only a free one (Spraymaster, I think) that came with the compressor. So I have treated myself to the new one that I've promised myself for many years.
I'm busy on other things until the weekend, by which time the new airbrush will have arrived. If I am successful in using it, I may well reduce the paintshop queue of locos. I've plenty of black paint and most of them are freight locos.
Earlswood nob

James Brodie
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by James Brodie » Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:43 am

Sirs,
I have a Gresley Dining Car on six wheel bogies No43040. The early CWDs shew their workings and I have mine as per CWD on the back end of a Scotch train which went as far as YK serving AM meals, the return now on the front of the train back to KX and served PM meals. One of my photos shews the coach but the bogies are obscured by the platform !! I will look through my other coach photos I know some of my Pullmans have six wheel bogies. The two Royal coaches have six wheel bogies the other six coaches on the train have four wheelers. I think I posted some coach photos a while back but when I remember how to add photos I'll do my best to shew some.
Jim Brodie.

john coffin
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by john coffin » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:16 pm

Plainly six wheeled bogies were initially used because of the restricted axle loads imposed by the civil engineer, and the somewhat light track around the time of the introduction of Clerestories. As has been mentioned before, Ivatt is alleged, having walked the length of the GN main line, to have said that had he known how bad the track was he might not have
joined the railway. It was around this time that steel rails became much more prevalent.

All the calculations using slide rules, or their brains, not super fast computers, interesting how we take longer to make similar decisions!!!!!!

Paul

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:15 pm

I have a reason for dragging up this old chestnut.....

Does anybody happen to know which diagrams the Peter K etches represent please, besides the obvious example illustrated earlier by Jonathan?

I contacted Peter Dawson at Kemilway, current supplier of these etches, at least couple of months ago, hoping that he could either supply diagram Nos, or drawings, or images of either the etches or of built-up models so that I could deduce the diagram numbers. Apparently no images were available and he couldn't send scans because he needed to get a new scanner. I was left with the impression that he might be able to find some drawings and would be in touch. Despite a follow up e-mail after three or four weeks as a gentle reminder, I’ve still received no information at all, so third party help if possible would be appreciated.
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