Twelve wheel coaches

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melton
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by melton » Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:15 pm

I wonder if Howlden was forced to use 6 wheel bogies because of short locking bars on the GN. I know the GWR had to replace it's locking bars in order to run the Churchward 70' stock. Again, the GWR only used 6 wheel bogies on stock over 45 tons - the Howlden stock wouldn't have come near that.

65447
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 65447 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:01 pm

melton wrote:I wonder if Howlden was forced to use 6 wheel bogies because of short locking bars on the GN. I know the GWR had to replace it's locking bars in order to run the Churchward 70' stock. Again, the GWR only used 6 wheel bogies on stock over 45 tons - the Howlden stock wouldn't have come near that.
6-wheel bogies were used for three reasons:

1. To spread the load on the permanent way and keep loadings within restrictions;
2. To reduce the load on the axle journals to within the limits for the size and type of bearings;
3. In the case of the ECJS and similar long-bodied stock, 6-wheel bogies also gave a smoother ride with less lateral hunting.

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:01 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:I have a reason for dragging up this old chestnut.....

Does anybody happen to know which diagrams the Peter K etches represent please, besides the obvious example illustrated earlier by Jonathan?

I contacted Peter Dawson at Kemilway, current supplier of these etches, at least couple of months ago, hoping that he could either supply diagram Nos, or drawings, or images of either the etches or of built-up models so that I could deduce the diagram numbers. Apparently no images were available and he couldn't send scans because he needed to get a new scanner. I was left with the impression that he might be able to find some drawings and would be in touch. Despite a follow up e-mail after three or four weeks as a gentle reminder, I’ve still received no information at all, so third party help if possible would be appreciated.
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2512silverfox

Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 2512silverfox » Fri Oct 14, 2016 10:25 am

I am not sure if we are talking about the same vehicles but this is a part of a message to John Smart last year.

Returning to the Kemilway vehicle. I have had no response from Tony (Dyer), but I am now sure that the vehicle advertised is complete fiction. It certainly is not 42515, which was a locker compo and the only vehicle to Dia 429B. 429A incidentally was a standard vehicle absorbed into the GN Book, I assume before the LNER Standard book was published. There is one other ECJS compo it could have been but the orientation is all wrong. My opinion for what it is worth is that the locker part of 42515 was used as a brake van and the 1st comps downgraded. I do not have an actual diagram for 429B so this has to be conjecture.

Nick

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notascoobie
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by notascoobie » Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:04 am

Hi Graeme,

My take on the Peter K ECJS etches is that one is ok and one not so good. I reckon the Brake Third is ok for Dia 50 numbers 262,3 and 4. By contrast the closest I can get to the First Diner is Dia 79 number 317. But the doors aren't right for that. I have tried looking at GNR Howlden diagrams but can't find anything closer.

I stress that I'm not repeat not an expert or serious researcher. I've looked at Hoole and at the various articles, drawings and photos I've collected over the years.

Hope that helps.

Vernon

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:45 pm

So is this another example of good old fashioned caveat emptor?

For convenience of anyone trying to follow this discussion, rather than hunt down the necessary list, the coaches are advertised as:

PK61/89 EJCS Clerestory 12 wheel corr bk 3rd

PK62/89 EJCS Clerestory 12 wheel corr lug compo

PK63/89 EJCS Clerestory 12 wheel corr all 3rd

PK64/89 EJCS Clerestory 12 wheel Dining Car (no class specified for this one...)
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60117 Bois Roussel

Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Sat Oct 15, 2016 12:34 am

I have a Gresley Dining Car on six wheel bogies No43040. The early CWDs shew their workings and I have mine as per CWD on the back end of a Scotch train which went as far as YK serving AM meals, the return now on the front of the train back to KX and served PM meals. One of my photos shews the coach but the bogies are obscured by the platform !! I will look through my other coach photos I know some of my Pullmans have six wheel bogies. The two Royal coaches have six wheel bogies the other six coaches on the train have four wheelers. I think I posted some coach photos a while back but when I remember how to add photos I'll do my best to shew some.
Jim Brodie.
Jim, I think your contribution slipped between the cracks; may I offer some thoughts? Because I fear that there's been a mix-up along the way.

- The 12w dining cars to GNR.60 for the "Sheffield" stock were initially LNER-numbered 43039,40,41.
- On cascading, they became 22262, 32302/3,
- And when rebuilt as Kitchen Cars in the late '30s for the NEA, they became 22262, 2334/5.

Prior to that, 43039 kept its GN-Section number when it was rostered (using that number) in the Newcastle-Bournemouth cross-country express, and there are photographs.

The other two, 43040/1, were renumbered by 1928-29 for the SSA and the previous numbers were re-used by the GN Section for 61'6" RF and RU cars, in which one of the Diagrams was (confusingly) built as RF and RU, the latter often used with overnight trains, at the outer end for easy detachment en route. Clive and I described the practice in "LNER Passenger Trains & Formations" and as you don't give a date for your source, I wonder if that's what you were looking at in the Carriage Working book? If you still have a copy, other details should give it away. The builds were:
D.10C RF 1928 43040
D.11 RU 1929 43041
As it happens, I have LNER Officials for both of them as-built. Give me a day or two and I'll put them on my w/s along with some notes.

People sometimes wonder why we didn't reproduce actual rosters, instead of writing them up. One reason is that railway documents can be confusing, and you're far from alone. One example that lingers concerns a certain display model railway in the south Midlands that decided to model the Newcastle-Bournemouth as it passed though GWR territory, looked up the spec for the RC in the CW Book, and concluded that it was a Gresley 61'6" RC. My explanation fell on stony ground - that all of those were built for use on the NE and Scotland - and that the actual vehicle was a gorgeous 12w one, yup, 43039.

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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:11 am

notascoobie wrote:Hi Graeme,

My take on the Peter K ECJS etches is that one is ok and one not so good. I reckon the Brake Third is ok for Dia 50 numbers 262,3 and 4. By contrast the closest I can get to the First Diner is Dia 79 number 317. But the doors aren't right for that. I have tried looking at GNR Howlden diagrams but can't find anything closer.

I stress that I'm not repeat not an expert or serious researcher. I've looked at Hoole and at the various articles, drawings and photos I've collected over the years.

Hope that helps.

Vernon
Interesting. The "provisional diagnosis" of roughly Dia 79 for the Dining salon would make it a composite rather than a first if Hoole's details are correct, two examples of which went to the GC section in 1925 and one to the NE which might not be ideal for my modelling intentions. Another contribution by PM suggests to me that the coach portrayed is one that went to the GC section, but I await further evidence.
Might the discrepancies in the doors be a consequence of a partial rebuild? I note that some dining vehicles were rebuilt with large windows for instance, but perhaps that was a luxury reserved for First Diners?

Dia 50 for the Brake Third sounds ideal, two such vehicles apparently going to the GN section in 1927.

The Corridor Composite with luggage locker, as modelled by Jonathan, matches (by eye) Dia 6 perfectly. Hoole handily lists these as going to the GN and GC sections in the mid twenties rather than to scrap.

I've had a suggestion that the Corridor Third may be D21 or 27. I suspect Jonathan may be able to comment on that. The Dia 27s appear to have gone to the GN area in 1927 too, suiting me.

What I am certainly trying to avoid is inadvertently modelling any vehicle that was scrapped in the mid twenties!
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60117 Bois Roussel

Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Sun Oct 16, 2016 1:08 am

OK, I've put up a new topic on the w/s (see link below) which includes the GNR-built 12-wheel Restaurant Cars, which served until 1936, and into BR days as 12-wheel Kitchen Cars. I've also covered confusion arising from renumbering and similarly numbered Unclassed Restaurant Cars with late night trains.

But I'm a little puzzled.

This thread was started under a heading of "Twelve wheel coaches" but for three pages has occupied itself almost entirely with some ECJS kits, which are semi-fictional. It's as if Tri-ang had produced a cross between an LNER K2 and a K3, and years later, people were trying to find out which class it was so they could number it accurately!

It's also as if a Martian had landed on Earth and asked about LNER Pacifics, only to be told about the Raven ones, nothing about the others, pre-Group and LNER.

Personally, I would never build a semi-fictitious kit based on wonky drawings, and we do have two excellent kits from Dan Pinnock whose D&S range includes these two 12-wheel beauties:

GNR Restaurant Composite
NER Restaurant Composite

They still come up on eBay and the NER one has been re-released: those lasted until 1948 but as mentioned above, the GNR-built ones ran well into BR days (see picture I've included) and served in decent services that can be modelled with a degree of faithfulness.

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:29 am

Hello Steve,

Can we deduce that you have the necessary reliable information to show that some or all of the Peter K etches are semi fictional? If so, can you please tell us which ones are the real rotters and which, if any of them, come closest to a true diagram? That will save any need for further tedious searching and for continuing discussion of what you appear, perhaps rightly if you have the evidence, to regard as an unhelpful distraction.

Graeme King
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60117 Bois Roussel

Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by 60117 Bois Roussel » Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:53 pm

Hello all,

If only life were so simple! It may help to get down to some basics here.

In this area, there are four levels of drawing and a pecking order:
- proper engineering drawings,
- GAs,
- Diagrams,
- modellers drawings.
As you go down the list there is less detail, more simplification/approximation/error, the last often being the worst if it's relied on the level immediately above, with personal interpretation/guesstimates added.

All are produced by humans, with their foibles and fallibilities, likewise the companies who employ them. Modellers' dwgs based on a Diagram can be miles out, one reason alone being that only one elevation is shown and the plan view can be hard to analyse.

I learned a long time ago that the modellers' dwgs by Fed Lee were unreliable, and that the etchings copied them. And that some of these vehicles were modified, a common practice with wooden vehicles and changing requirements. When this happens, unless you have proper, dated dwgs you only make a rod for your own back by trying to sift through what is in the public domain.

Another aspect is that I have always believed in specialists, and not to duplicate research. When it comes to the ECJS (and GNR) 12w stock I have discussed the problem with two people who are closer to it than most of us, and left it to them. I cannot name either for personal reasons but both are well known and one has made much (frustratingly arduous) progress - on the historical side, not modellers' etchings - and while not yet complete, is looking for a publisher. Until then, I don’t think anybody is in a position to analyse with confidence where the etchings stand.

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Atlantic 3279
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 6:02 pm

Okay, thank you. Now I'm emphatically NOT trying to be awkward or argumentative here, but that appears to leave mere mortals such as myself in the position that:
a) You say the etches are semi fictional but you decline to say what you so far believe is wrong with them.
b) You appear to me say that this is not your specialist area of research - so it could be that some or all aspects of some of the etches are exactly right.
c) You feel that you cannot direct us to the person or people who might be able to give a definitive answer.

Under the circumstances, what is a poor modeller to do if he wishes to make at least a reasonable attempt at portraying, or paying tribute to, the highly distinctive 12 wheel clerestory Howlden coaches and their York-built brethren? Go with what is available in the form of the PK etches but accept that the resultant model may be wrong, so be prepared to build a replacement in the future if better information emerges - if the modeller can then be bothered? Hope to find photographs from all sides of the relevant coach on the relevant date plus dated drawings and set about scratch-building, or custom etching, or 3D printing, or use a plotter-cutter to produce layers for the panelling? How many will do that and how long would the research and building take? Forget the idea of trying to build any such coach model for the time being even if it is a key element in making his overall modelling scheme "believable"?

What do you suggest as the practical option given that pedantic adherence to spot-on accuracy is not currently possible?
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by notascoobie » Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:42 pm

Atlantic 3279 wrote:Okay, thank you. Now I'm emphatically NOT trying to be awkward or argumentative here, but that appears to leave mere mortals such as myself in the position that:
a) You say the etches are semi fictional but you decline to say what you so far believe is wrong with them.
b) You appear to me say that this is not your specialist area of research - so it could be that some or all aspects of some of the etches are exactly right.
c) You feel that you cannot direct us to the person or people who might be able to give a definitive answer.

Under the circumstances, what is a poor modeller to do if he wishes to make at least a reasonable attempt at portraying, or paying tribute to, the highly distinctive 12 wheel clerestory Howlden coaches and their York-built brethren? Go with what is available in the form of the PK etches but accept that the resultant model may be wrong, so be prepared to build a replacement in the future if better information emerges - if the modeller can then be bothered? Hope to find photographs from all sides of the relevant coach on the relevant date plus dated drawings and set about scratch-building, or custom etching, or 3D printing, or use a plotter-cutter to produce layers for the panelling? How many will do that and how long would the research and building take? Forget the idea of trying to build any such coach model for the time being even if it is a key element in making his overall modelling scheme "believable"?

What do you suggest as the practical option given that pedantic adherence to spot-on accuracy is not currently possible?
There are photos and drawings of ECJS Howlden carriages in the Hoole book which is the only decent source I'm aware of in advance of any new publication. As a modeller you look at your sources and make your mind up. The way I look at it is that I only have to satisfy myself with my modelling so if someone gets sniffy I don't care. They can make their own perfect model!

Regards,

Vernon

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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by Atlantic 3279 » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:49 pm

That's certainly what I would do in ordinary circumstances. The snag here, for the time being, is that with the exception of the one set of etches from Peter K that Jonathon's model illustrates nicely, there seems to be no way other than buying them "blind" (if you actually can buy them, but that's another story) of finding out if the other etches in the range even look like the Hoole photographs and drawings.

It occurred to me after typing my last set of comments that if the PK etches are not correct and can only be used to build a model that has the general look of a Howlden 12 wheeler but which may only be a stop-gap pending production of something more accurate, or if it turns out that the etches cannot actually now be obtained, then another round of dissection and reassembly of Margate toys with some new parts thrown in may be almost as good an approach as any, for the time being.
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Re: Twelve wheel coaches

Post by rupertb » Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:13 pm

Having built a number of the Peter K ECJS 12 Wheelers some of which feature on Gresley Beat my advice would be

a) Beware - not just because of the points Steve raised but because you will end up with something very heavy and with a lot of friction by the time you've put a copperclad floor in and the D&S 6W bogies that are the closest to the prototype

b) If you are a glutton for punishment then I would recommend
1) Figure out what you are trying to build - i.e the whole train and then pick the most relevant vehicles rather than building a kit because it is "top of the pile"
2) Look at the NRM drawing list and book yourself in at York for an afternoon to look at the drawings available and take lots of pictures - sadly most of the Howlden drawings I have looked at are rather poor dyeline copies of the originals and are very hard to decipher.
3) Look below the waist at the drawings and at the surviving vehicles - before the Gresley era pretty much every underframe was unique - I did a brief study of Howlden 6W coaches based on the GNR Society diagram lists and came up with over 20 different body length/width combinations so I shelved my plans to design any new etches until I knew more about what ran in a specific train (the 1938 recreation with No 1). Remember most of the vehicles were gas lit so the size and position of the gas cylinders is crucial to the look of the model and they varied a lot.

For their time (i.e. c 1980) the Peter K etches will get you a something that looks like a Howlden body box but that is all - we now have a lot more data available for study at the NRM which was not available back then and we really should be trying to move our standards forward.

One day I will get round to doing some Howlden etches in the RDEB range in 4 and 7mm to round out some LNER trains of the 1923-39 era - many of them actually lasted in the backwaters of Lincolnshire and East Anglia into the late 1940s as well as departmentals
-R
PS I will be in the Demo Gang at Warley NEC in November if you want to discuss further

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