What loco?

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52D
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:58 pm

Thanks for keeping this post fresh any more miss marples got thoughts on it.
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Re: What loco?

Post by third-rail » Sun Jun 14, 2009 9:29 pm

the building on the left of the picture looks like the discharge doors of a coke oven at the bottom of which appears to be ramp where the coke was dumped after being quenched,so if that is a gas holder in the rear it could have been the steelworks runaway.

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Re: What loco?

Post by Ferrybridge Flyer » Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:09 pm

Imagine how long it would take to sort out now-what with "risk assessments",and clipboard-carrying retards!
Bring back Ferrybridge station!

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Re: What loco?

Post by Bryan » Wed Jun 17, 2009 9:03 pm

I asked the question of a Breakdown crane enthusiast.
Yes there are such people. His response is:-

I have to admit that at the moment I have no idea about the location of the incident, although, having read through the text of the discussion I tend to support the view that it is not bomb damage since there seems to be too little colateral damage for a blast. The loco seems to have fallen into some kind of hole, or run onto a structure of inadequate strength, and at the moment my guess is that the person who suggested that it had run through a stop block or similar may be right.

As far as the cranes are concerned:-

1) It is without doubt a Cravens crane.
2) The makers' plate appears to have the date 1907.
3) This narrows the nearer crane down to one of 6; the one GCR 20-tonner, the three NER 25-tonners, or the two CR 20-tonners.
4) The two CR cranes had the following distinctive features: a) burden chains not ropes, b) unusual springy things under the foot of the jib, and c) end outriggers in the vicinity of the drawhooks. We have photo evidence to show that all these features (with the possible exception of the end triggers) were still present on RS1052 at Motherwell on 27/03/76. It is reasonable to conclude that it is not a CR crane.
5) I know less about the GCR 20-tonner and have never seen a photo, but Brownlie records that although the 20- and 25-ton cranes were essentially a common design, the 20's used a two-part chain and the 25's a four-part rope for lifting. Given that the two cranes in the photo appear to be identical, it seems so improbable that one is the GCR crane that I feel this possibility can safely be ruled out. We are left with the inevitable conclusion that the two cranes are two of the three 25-tonners.
6) Comparison of the photo with the small number of photos of CME13 which I have to hand show nothing to counter this conclusion. There are interesting differences between the crane in the photo and CME13 as it is today which may provide dating clues if further research is carried out, specifically:
i) All the hooks from which shackles etc are hanging in the mystery photo have been removed, but the rivets on CME13 look as though they have been replaced. Brownlie Fig 65 (901637 ex-CME12 at Sunderland in LNER days) shows these hooks present.
ii) CME13 now has swing-away buffers to improve portee, so has presumably at some stage been altered (unless this feature was unique to CME13). Brownlie Fig 65 has fixed buffers.
iii) There are some differences to the cab area where additional plating has been added to CME13. Brownlie Fig 65 has the additional plating.
iv) CME13 has at some time been vacuum through-piped.

In the mystery photo the nearer crane appears to be painted red(?) with black and white/straw lining. IN LNER days the cranes were generally black, so this and iii) above suggest that the photo is pre-grouping to me.

The three cranes went to Darlington (CME12), Middlesborough (CME13) and Sunderland (CME14) from new and stayed until after the grouping (source Brownlie), so it would be easy to assume that the incident is in one of these general areas. However, if before 1912, then these were the largest cranes on the NER so may have travelled further afield if the job required a lift in excess of that possible with the 15-ton CS cranes CME1, CME2, or CME3. Sadly my knowledge of structures and locations, and of incidents in that area and era is not good, although I think we can rule out incident involving passenger trains (since there would undoubtedly be records of such incidents).

My conclusion so far therefore is that the cranes are two of the three 25 tonners, and the incident is pre-grouping.

Following on from this with a further reply

Take a look at the building in the background of this picture (link below) that is always for sale on Ebay and compare it with the building on the right in the mystery photo. They look incredibly similar to me.

Perhaps this is another view of the same incident? What do you reckon?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NER-railway-accid ... C294%3A100

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:51 pm

Definitely a Craven crane but i thought when i attempted to blow makers name up date appeared to be 1937. Sadly i dont have software to enhance the plate can anyone oblige.
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:46 am

On the 14th September 1909 NER class S1 (LNER class B14) No 2115 (Redtoons earlier post sugests that part of that number could be 115) was involved in a derailment at Elswick. The locomotive was repaired and returned to service and then involved in a rear end collision at Darlington 12th November 1910.
The ebay photo above looks like an S1 loco and the buildings look similar to the Elswick area and indeed the original photo.
I wonder if both pics are the same incident or if the background buildings are similar leading to confusion.
Over to the forum for further comments.

There is another photo of the Darlington accident at Durham county councils keys to the past website i have asked for permission to post it watch this space.

I think the answer is one of the two mentioned accidents.
Last edited by 52D on Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What loco?

Post by Bryan » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:35 pm

52D before you get to far into the Darlington website I have a further update from my crane enthusiast correspondent.

The cranes in the Durham CC photos are not those in the other two photos; they are clearly CS 20-tonners. The loco looks very similar, and could be the one in the ebay photo. The pictures of it on its side however show a distinct lack of a hole, although the original mystery photo clearly shows a significant depression.

There is also no sign of the building that links the ebay photo and the mystery photo.

Overall I suspect that the mystery photo and the ebay show the same incident, and the two Durham CC photos are another, which begs further questions:

1) did the NER suffer two seperate accidents in Darlington on 15/11/10?
2) did something collapse after the Durham CC photos were taken (15/11) and before the other two (16/11) allowing the loco to fall into a hole?
3) Are some or all of the dates wrong


FURTHER COMMENT
I did however notice that Earnshaw's book "An Illustrated History of Trains In Trouble" (this is the hardback volume that came after the 8 little softback books) has an entry for the collision at Darlington at 50 mins past midnight on 15/11/1910.

Apparently a driver who was known to have an alcohol problem was in charge of a Newcastle - Leeds express goods hauled by NER S1 4-6-0 no 2115 when it ran at about 35 mph into the rear of a Gateshead - Hull goods train which was waiting at signals on the up main.

There are two photos which clearly show that the S1 overturned onto its RH side. They show that to the RH of the accident side there is distinctive brick wall (with high round windows and clearly not the same wall as in the mystery photo) and to the LH there are sidings with wagons. The accident is being cleared by two CS 15 tons cranes with burden chains. There is no doubt whatsoever that ths is the same incident as in the photos you found on the Durham CC website.

I am therefore drawn increasingly to the conclusion that the photo on ebay is wrongly described when the vendor says it is Darlington on 15/11/10, and I am tempted to email him to ask why he thinks it is this (it may be that the original photo is annoted thus in which case the mystery deepens, or it may simply be that he's seen one of the other photos and mistakenly assumed that it is the same incident). I am however still convinced that the ebay photo and the original mystery photo show the same mishap.

COMMENT FROM ANOTHER CRANE ENTHUSIAST

I agree with you that the ebay photo and the mystery photo depict the same accident and probably not on 15/11/1910. I am also satisfied that the locos involved in both accidents were Worsdell S1 class. The S1 loco was introduced in 1900 and only five were built so there's a fair chance that the same loco was involved in both accidents, especially if driven by the same alcoholic driver! (The shorter chimney separates the S1 from the earlier class S but there appears to be little other visual difference.)

I was baffled by a picture I found of 2115 without the safety valve cover that can be seen in the accident photos but the LNER Encyclopedia says that the LNER replaced the Ramsbottom valves on 2112 and 2115 with Ross 'pop' valves. All five of the S1 class had Schmidt superheaters fitted between 1913 and 1917 and this lengthened the smokebox, however the ebay and Durham CC photos seem to show a relatively short smokebox so this suggests the 'mystery' accident took place between 1907 and 1917. The LNER Encyclo tells us further that "from 1907 the B14s were mainly allocated to main line goods traffic, especially the Scottish fish trains", which info could narrow our search for the location

So does this add anything to what we know or don't know?

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:14 pm

Well done ploughman. If it isnt the 1910 crash we need a bit more information on the Elswick derailment of 1909 it appears that 2115 is an unlucky loco just like Merry Hampton who featured in a few incidents. I did try googleing Elswick derailment 1909 but didnt get any good results.
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52A » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:16 am

The breadth and depth of knowledge on this forum never ceases to amaze me, very well done everyone! My gut feeling is still to go with Elswick, I tend to think the E Bay picture is the same incident. Examining the original photo (6.25x4.5 inches) with a magnifying glass I am fairly certain that the date on the crane is 1907 and that the first letter painted on the crane at the extreme right is a letter G. The Darlington crash was at the rear of the station and the buildings don’t match this one, Earnshaw’s book has a good picture of the "building/wall" concerned. The Darlington crash incidentally was a Tweedmouth man, they did get about didn’t they!

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:04 am

With our joint findings so far i tend to think now that Mystery picture and the ebay photo are of the 1909 Elswick derailment. They differ quite a bit from the 1910 Darlington collision.
There is a local history Website of the area i will send an enquiry to them with our findings so far.
I think the contributers to this thread deserve a pat on the back for persistence.
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:26 am

Enclosed is a picture from Ken Hooles collection showing the aftermath of the Darlington collision with 2115 lying on her side showing damage to cab roof. Click on picture for a clear view
2115 Darlington accident 1910.JPG
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Re: What loco?

Post by 61070 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:57 pm

I've been following with great interest the fascinating discussion leading from 52A's photo of the cranes lifting a locomotive out of a hole (Jan 1st 2009) and I've thought about it a lot, but I've had nothing to add to the debate so have not become involved - until now.

I re-read the whole thread again last Thursday evening and decided on a hunch, but mainly because 52D suggested the date of 14th September 1909 in a post of July 20th, to take myself off to the new central library in Newcastle on Friday lunchtime to look at the newspapers for mid-September 1909. The result follows - transcribed from microfilm in one case and direct from a rather fragile newspaper in the other. I've included the whole of each report because it's not really possible to shorten them without omitting something important/relevant (there wouldn't be that problem with most press reports today!!). There are also no online sources for these, so far as I know, so not possible to link to anything.
_______________________________________________

The Newcastle Daily Journal, Wednesday September 15th 1909, page 10
Special Edition
Wednesday Morning Six O'clock

BIG RAILWAY SMASH.
Alarming Accident at Elswick.
Four Men Injured.
Goods Train Collides with a Standing Engine.
Damage to Rolling Stock.

An accident, involving serious injury to four employees of the North Eastern Railway Company and extensive damage to rolling stock, occurred last night at about eleven o'clock near the Elswick Works, on the Newcastle and Carlisle line.

A goods train of considerable length, it appears, was running westward from Forth Junction when, owing to some cause yet to be ascertained, it left the main track and ran along one belonging to Messrs. Sir W.G. Armstrong, Whitworth and Company Limited. This private way lies parallel to and on the south side of the main line.

At a point about 200 yards west of where the two converge, and a few yards eastward of the entrance to the offices of the Elswick firm, stood one of the latter's small locomotives, which had been placed there at the conclusion of the day's operations.

Into it dashed the heavily laden goods train, the impact creating a terrific noise, which alarmed people passing along Scotswood Road. The stationary engine was hurled towards the main line, and very much broken up.

The goods engine turned completely over in the other direction, and lay partly suspended over the Elswick Ordnance Works, which are on a lower level than the rails. The wall seemed to have been considerably damaged, as was the locomotive.

A van immediately behind the engine, and six or seven other vehicles which formed part of the train, were broken and thrown up into a vast heap. The van came to rest in an elevated position, and at right angles to the rails.

Upon the goods engine were Christopher Chandler, of Leeds (driver), Robert Martin Shillady (conductor or pilot), and George Bowman (fireman). In the front van there travelled a guard named James Ward.

Chandler escaped with comparatively slight injuries, though scalded on the right arm and cuts about the head. Ward, who resides at 13 Masham Street, Leeds, was cut over the left eye, and appeared to be suffering from shock.

Shillady and Bowman fared a great deal worse than the others. Both were taken to the Royal Infirmary. Shillady, the conductor, was reported to have been scalded from head to foot, and inquiries proved him to be in a very critical condition, although there were hopes that a robust constitution would allow him to pull through. He is 37 years of age, and lives at 9, Saltwell Street, Bensham, Gateshead. He is married.

Bowman, who was scalded on the back, is a single man, residing at 12, Salisbury Terrace. Lodge Road, Armley, Leeds. He is 28 years of age.

An inspection of the scene caused one to wonder how any of the four men had escaped death.

The driver and the guard, luckily, fell clear of the debris, but the other two lay beneath a great mass of wreckage, and could only be rescued by men breaking through the wall of the adjoining works.

Valuable assistance was rendered by members of Armstrong, Whitworth and Co.'s private fire brigade.

Both the up and the down lines were blocked, and passenger traffic was interrupted for some hours. People who intended travelling from the city to Scotswood, Blaydon and other places in the neighbourhood found it necessary to walk.

_______________________________________________

The Evening Chronicle, Wednesday September 15th 1909, page 4

ACCIDENT AT ELSWICK.
Goods Train Runs Into a Standing Engine.
Four Men Injured and Much Damage Done.

On the private railway of the Armstrong-Whitworth Company, at Elswick, a serious accident occurred about eleven o'clock on Tuesday night. This private railway line runs parallel with the Carlisle lines of the North-Eastern Railway Company for a good portion of the length of the Elswick Works. A heavy good's train from the Forth Goods-Station got on to this private line, and after travelling along it for some distance ran into one of the Elswick firm's locomotives, which was standing on the line.

The train left the North [sic] Goods-Station at 10.40 p.m. for Leeds. It consisted of 45 heavy wagons drawn by a powerful six-coupled engine with bogey. The route it had to take was via the west line, Scotswood Bridge, and the loop line to Low Fell, where it would be joined to the main line South. The driver and fireman of the engine, being both Leeds men, unaccustomed to the points and signals around Newcastle, were accompanied by a Gateshead driver named Robert Martin Shillady, who was to pilot the train over the Scotswood Bridge to Low Fell. How Shillady missed the points outside the Forth Goods Station and ran so far along this private line without finding out his error cannot yet be ascertained, for he is too ill to give any explanation.

The heavy train was travelling at a good speed along the private line when it crashed into the stationary locomotive, which was knocked over onto the North-Eastern line. The goods-train engine embedded itself into a coal-shoot adjoining the ordnance works, and wagons were piled up behind the locomotive. The signalman at Elswick cabin telegraphed at once to the Forth Goods-station instructing them to stop the Hexham train, which was due in a few minutes at the spot where the accident had occurred, and which, unless stopped, would have collided with the light locomotive which had been thrown from one line onto the other.

A telegraph-post which had been brought down in the smash had the effect, by reason of the broken wires, of automatically informing the Elswick Fire Brigade that an accident had occurred, and it was with the prompt arrival of these firemen that the Gateshead driver and the Leeds fireman were quickly extricated from the debris.

Christopher Chandler, the Leeds driver, managed to scramble out of the cab after the collision with little more than a severe shaking. The Gateshead driver, and the Leeds fireman, a young man named Geo. Bowman, were found in the cab of the engine. They were most severely scalded. One of them had to be completely re-clothed. Without any loss of time they were taken to the Royal Infirmary in a motor ambulance.

The guard of the goods train, James Ward, of Leeds, also had a miraculous escape, for he was in the van just behind the engine. Though the van was almost completely wrecked, he escaped unhurt except for a cut over the eye.

Local railway officials were soon on the scene, and workmen had the west line clear for traffic this morning. The tank engine was replaced on the Elswick line, but the heavy goods-engine was this morning lying sideways covered with piled up debris and damaged wagons.

According to Elswick Works officials, very little damage was done to the ordnance works, against which the engine fell after it had struck the coal-shoot.

Shillady and Bowman were reported at the Infirmary, this morning, to be progressing as favourably as could be expected. The Leeds driver and guard, after having had their hurts attended to, left for home at 1.47 a.m. to-day.
_____________________________________________

See also the attached photo from the second report – quality not good because it's a scan of a printout from microfilm!
_____________________________________________

Sadly there's a tragic conclusion to the story because the most seriously injured man, Robert Shilladay of Gateshead, died shortly afterwards. From the newspaper reports of his condition it didn't sound as if he was going to make it. He left a widow, a son and four daughters. I found this from the online national births, marriages and deaths register for 1909, and then in the 1911 census where I picked up his family (I've used the spelling of his name that's in the record of his death; it's Shillady in the press reports, and his family is recorded as Shilliday in 1911!). Shilladay was acting as conductor/pilot, and it's possible that he was never able to explain what happened that night from his point of view; the press reports seem to infer that he was at fault. By 1911 his son, the eldest child aged 17, was employed by the NER as a fitter and turner.

Next month it will be 100 years since this accident happened, and there are still questions to be researched, e.g. is there any record of an enquiry at which the surviving men and others gave evidence? Was there a fault with points/signals, or was there signalman error? What was the identity of the industrial loco, and did it ever run again? When was the photo actually taken? - the following Sunday, when they had arranged a possession? etc. etc. I've also been looking at a reprint of the 1913 OS map of Elswick to try to pinpoint exactly where this accident occurred, and what the large building was. There were several locations where lines ran off into Elswick Works. Large buildings adjoining the line to the north in the area that I think it happened are the Baths & Wash House and the Police & Fire Station, so possibly the large building is one of these? Incidentally, the 'ebay photo' looks definitely to be of this incident too.

Thanks are due to the staff in the local studies section at the new main library in Newcastle, who provided a first class and very speedy service when I called.
Attachments
Elswick accident 1909.jpg
Last edited by 61070 on Tue Aug 25, 2009 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Mon Aug 24, 2009 1:07 am

I think that from 61070s reports and other information obtained that this mystery picture is S1 Class No2115 lying off the rails after the Elswick collision and the internet picture is the same incident.
Well done to all that made a contribution. Bring on the next one.
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sun Sep 06, 2009 5:55 pm

Just a little note to let our members know that on the 15th of September it will be the Centenary of the Elswick Crash.
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