What loco?

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redtoon1892
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Re: What loco?

Post by redtoon1892 » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:13 pm

My two penneth on the damaged locomotive is.
A - Zeppelin bomb damage at the Hartlepools during the Great War,
B - Shell damage caused when the Kaisers High Seas Fleet bombarded the same towns.
Both events caused great loss of life and extensive damage to the area and railway and gangs and cranes would have been brought in from the surrounding areas to get things up and running again. The explosion (s) would have to have been considerable to cause that amount of destruction.
The style of the crews pill box caps would fit into the Great War period.
I have not read about the Elswick gas explosion theory but the huge building on the right would fit the Vickers works.
Does an old Gateshead depot steam crane still exist at the K&WVR ?.

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:16 pm

An interesting theory Mr Redtoon, I was thinking along similar lines but my location and war were different i wonder if it is Sunderland during the second world war with bomb damage. Its a pity that the photo is not a little clearer. The wall behind the crane seems to curve round and i cant see any sign of a tunnel entrance so a terminal type location such as a gas works also fits the bill also can you make out a signalbox to the left?
Any idea on the locos ID it looks NER 0-6-0 of J21/25/27 class. Just checked through my records of class J21 it appears that at least 4 locomotives were withdrawn during hostilites these were all fairly early builds so it was probably due to them being life expired although it may be worth checking Yeadons for fates if the loco in the pic was scrapped after the incident.
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52A » Sat Jan 03, 2009 5:41 pm

I think they were all lever reverse, the J27 certainley was.

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Re: What loco?

Post by hq1hitchin » Sat Jan 03, 2009 6:26 pm

It looks a bit old to be WW2, judging by the attire of some of the men in the pic. Take the chap immediate front with his back to us, and the bloke stood on the packing by the crane - their clothes look to be an older period than 1939-45. The only building that I can think of on the GE that looks like the one on the right is the Bryant and May's match factory at Bow, although I doubt it is GE to be honest.
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redtoon1892
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Re: What loco?

Post by redtoon1892 » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:40 pm

It would appear two cranes are at work here at back and front of the loco, the tender has prob already been removed or was totally destroyed.Its a fair old crater it is in and thats what gave rise to my theory of bomb or shell damage.

In the bottom left is what looks like the remains of a waggon of sorts with a bow topped end

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Re: What loco?

Post by mick b » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:02 pm

I would say pre grouping , the loco appears North Eastern and the mens clothing and round top wagons are all from that era or even earlier. It appears the loco is above a a large void or some similar , almost like a Inspection trench most odd. The men are much lower than the track on which the crane stands.
LNER Breakdown Cranes were Black with Red Lining . The crane shown has a banded lining, no idea of the colours for NER Cranes. Could this be MR or similar area??? There was plenty of joint running on various lines.
I love these kind of photos some much more to look at the the usual 3/4 view of another loco and great for modelling as well.

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redtoon1892
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Re: What loco?

Post by redtoon1892 » Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:31 pm

I have rotated the part of the picture which appears to be the cabside, it has lettering / numbering on it, to me it looks like 115 ? or maybe ? NER
cabside.jpg
cabside.jpg (4.23 KiB) Viewed 4042 times

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sat Jan 03, 2009 11:47 pm

Redtoon i may have the loco, 115 was not listed at the grouping i am checking records for it now it could be a NER Class 398. I have found No 112 a 38 class 4-4-0 withdrawn from Middlesbro March 1915 just checking to see if that ties in with the shelling
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Re: What loco?

Post by redtoon1892 » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:42 am

Middlesborough wasnt shelled by the High Seas Fleet but it was bombed by Zeppelins several times but the first bombings with 600kg bombs were a month after your loco withdrawal.
There was a scant report of a locomotive and train running away and ploughing into the buffers at Skinningrove steel works in 1910 but no real details.

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sun Jan 04, 2009 12:47 am

Of course the loco we are looking at may have been repaired even with that amount of damage. i am still looking for No 115.
NER numbers are a nightmare, still success No 115 was a class F 4-4-0 Compound passenger engine LNER D22 shedded at Bridlington at the grouping so she survived the first war if thats the correct number in the photograph. Another member of the same class No 96 was destroyed in a head on collision at Hull Feb 1927 the last one withdrawn was No 777 withdrawn from Waskerley May 1935. In 1893/94 these locos were relegated to secondary workings by the arrival of the M1 class
Last edited by 52D on Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52A » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:07 am

Second time of trying with this comment!

I have examined the original which has a little better definition and I cannot see any numbers or letters on the loco. I would say NE pre grouping, typical NE cab and safety valve cover. One for Time Team perhaps.

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:34 am

I am going on what information we have and wonder if it is Hull im afraid i dont know the area very well.
Regarding the Crane it has a rope as its method of lifting whereas after checking two photos of a definite Gateshead crane one in the works and one taken after the 1907 Goswick crash i find that the Gateshead crane uses a chain as its lifting medium so perhaps its a later crane.
By the way the lettering on the pics that i have, behind the driver reads.

Gateshead
Steam shed


Also the crane in my photo has a sign saying Weight 57 Tons which could be the machine weight or the maximum safe working load.
I concur that the cab looks NER in design Wordsell in particular ive just looked at Hooles locomotives of the NER and he states that as a general rule (but not set in stone) Passenger engines had screw reversers and goods engines had lever reversers so i think an NER 4-4-0 is still a good candidate.

Image below from an official NER photograph please click on pic for better view
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Gateshead breakdown crane Ca 1907.JPG
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Re: What loco?

Post by mick b » Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:10 am

The photo confirms the lining as being correct for NER . This is my LNER version

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:19 pm

Mick i remember seeing these pics in the model thread and was going to ask you to comment about the crane but it was late last night / early this morning. Anyway the facts are it is an NER type breakdown crane attending an accident where the loco appears to be fitted with a Wordsell type cab, the location has to be the next clue we need.

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Re: What loco?

Post by Bryan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:01 pm

Just been looking through "A Portrait of the NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY" by David and Claire Williamson.
On p 129 it shows a photo of a large Goods warehouse.
Is it possible that this a candidate for the building in the background of the photo.

Apparently it was titled as John Dobsons Trafalgar Goods Warehouse.
Or possibly New Bridge Street Goods Station.
There is a comment of it being demolished to facilitate the building of the connecting link between Manors Station and the Blyth and Tyne.

Any comments?

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