What loco?

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Bill Bedford
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Re: What loco?

Post by Bill Bedford » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:Regarding 52A's post on January 1st:
A very old and very battered photo, the loco appears to be down a hole, but where and why?
A couple of additional points,

Since there are two identical cranes in the photo it could be almost anywhere on the NER system.

The structure in the background looks, to me, like a gas holder.

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52A » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:33 pm

With regard to my last re Farrington Row, Malcolm's picture of the bridges over the Wear and Lambton Drops looks to be taken from very near that location looking east.

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Malcolm
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Re: What loco?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:59 pm

I did say it was just a theory.
At least I'm trying to find the location. It's not easy you know from Japan. I don't have access to books and libraries.
I don't see anyone else giving it a go.

Malcolm
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52A » Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:19 pm

Bill Bedford wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Regarding 52A's post on January 1st:
A very old and very battered photo, the loco appears to be down a hole, but where and why?
A couple of additional points,

Since there are two identical cranes in the photo it could be almost anywhere on the NER system.

The structure in the background looks, to me, like a gas holder.
Second time I have typed this, the last one vanished!

I have again examined the photo with a magnifying glass, the structure is very faint.

There are no gas holders near Farrington Row.

There are/were gas holders to the east of Elswick near Forth Goods inlet, this would mean the photo was towards the east.

There are high buildings on both sides so could this be inside the works railway, is this possible?

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Malcolm
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Re: What loco?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 05, 2009 3:46 pm

This is getting interesting.
The damage to the loco is consistent with it nosediving into a pit and the tender taking the cab roof off. The windows in the building on the right are intact which tends to preclude an explosion.
Even enhancing the photo using software I can't tell if the windows are undamaged or just boarded up. Neither can I agree with the damage on the loco being the result of "nosediving" (I'll stay open minded on that).
The high starched white shirt collar on the bystander just in front of the camera suggests pre WW1
My grandfather wore high starched collars all his life well into the 40s and 50s, as did others, so this is inconclusive.
The structure in the background looks, to me, like a gas holder.
I don't know how anyone can tell this. Doesn't look that to me even with enhancement, but again I'll stay open minded.

Next, I have researched a list of all accidents on the North Eastern Railway between 1906 and 1923. There were (according to records) 43 in all. I narrowed it down a bit to built up areas (I think we can agree it is not rural) that could have been covered by a Gateshead crane and that left these:

Accident at Felling. 26th Mar 1907 (collision)
Accident at Sunderland. 31st Jul 1909. (derailment)
Accident at Manors East. 21st Aug 1909. (collision)
Accident at Darlington. 15th Nov 1910. (collision)
Accident at Scotswood Bridge Junction. 6th Oct 1911 (derailment)
Accident at Manors East. 1st Mar 1913. (collision)
Accident at Newcastle Central. 25th Jun 1913. (collision)
Accident at Newcastle Central. 6th Jan 1914. (collision)
Accident at St Bedes Junction. 18th Dec 1915. (collision)
Accident at Manors East. 31st Oct 1919. (collision)
Accident at High Level Bridge, Newcastle. 24th Nov 1919. (collision)
Accident at Newcastle Central. 9th Sep 1921. (collision)
Accident at Hilda Junction, Tyne Dock. 30th Sep 1921. (derailment)

St. Bedes was discounted because I have the accident report on pdf. file. Scotswood bridge junction did not fit the bill because of the surroundings. The only one that came close was Hilda Junction, but that still did not fit the bill. Therefore I am still left with Sunderland during WW2.......or......the interesting and possible scenario by 52A of an accident inside some works and off the railway company lines (really interesting possibility). I'm still going for Sunderland, but I would welcome someone proving me wrong.

Interestingly, it looks like Newcastle and Manors East seemed to have more than their fair share of accidents.

Malcolm
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Re: What loco?

Post by 52A » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:25 pm

Also I don't think any of these had "holes" to fall into.

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Malcolm
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Re: What loco?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 05, 2009 4:28 pm

Nope. No holes in any of the 43 incidents. Nor were there any structural collapses.

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Re: What loco?

Post by Bill Bedford » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:This is getting interesting.
Next, I have researched a list of all accidents on the North Eastern Railway between 1906 and 1923. There were (according to records) 43 in all. I narrowed it down a bit to built up areas (I think we can agree it is not rural) that could have been covered by a Gateshead crane and that left these:Malcolm
Only those accidents in which passengers were killed or injured merited a BoT accident report. Accidents to goods trains, which this was, were not usually reported on even if the locomen were killed.

Since there are two identical cranes, one of which is almost certainly from Gatehead, the other must in all probability be from Darlington or Middlesborough. So the location of this photo could easily be Tyneside, Teeside or anywhere in between.

The way I read this photo is that to the right these is a factory or warehouse. Outside of this the are two sidings bounded by a fence. The cranes on on the outer of the two. To the left of the loco is what looks like the retaining wall to a bridge abutment, the slope of the capping stones matches the slope of the bank in front of the structure to the left. On top of this wall is another boundary wall with a very tall gate and gatepost propped up against it. The structure on the left hand side does not look to me like a building, it looks more like a retaining wall of some sort. In the background is a large open structure which is made up of vertical iron columns, it could be a gas holder, or part of a chemical plant or even ships masts.

I think what we have is a road or railway that runs below the sidings that the cranes are on and which runs into the the building on the right. I can see no signs of an explosion, while there is plenty of debris around, none of it is buckled or twisted. The large gates are intact and look as if they had been moved by the recovery crew. My guess is that this loco and train ran through a set of stop blocks and into the sunken roadway. This was a not uncommon type of accident which would not normally be noted in official papers.

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52A » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:20 pm

Well deperate times need desperate measures, so I parted the photo from it's backing to see what was written underneath (it was in a terrible state anyway). Guess what...nothing! Back to the drawing board, I must admit I am still sticking to the original theory that it was somwhere around Elswick. My, now distant, memory of that stretch and after studying old maps back to the turn of the century there appear to be possibilities in that area. There were coal drops and in some places over and under bridges, in the bottom left hand corner that looks like the end of an open wagon to me, no sign of a tender but that could have been removed first.

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Re: What loco?

Post by hq1hitchin » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:49 pm

Bill Bedford wrote:
Malcolm wrote:This is getting interesting.
Only those accidents in which passengers were killed or injured merited a BoT accident report. Accidents to goods trains, which this was, were not usually reported on even if the locomen were killed.

Not true, I'm afraid - collapse of structures was, and still is most certainly is, reportable and often merited a BoT/MoT etc report, just check the latest crop of reports on the Railways Archive to see what I mean
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Malcolm
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Re: What loco?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:40 am

Only those accidents in which passengers were killed or injured merited a BoT accident report. Accidents to goods trains, which this was, were not usually reported on even if the locomen were killed.

Since there are two identical cranes, one of which is almost certainly from Gatehead, the other must in all probability be from Darlington or Middlesborough. So the location of this photo could easily be Tyneside, Teeside or anywhere in between.
The accident reports for the period 1907 - 1923 do include goods train accidents, and accidents with no injuries. Furthermore, I do know it could have been anywhere, so I did check ALL the North Eastern.

I am starting to lean in the direction of 52A's theory, but how do we check?

Malcolm
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Re: What loco?

Post by hq1hitchin » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:36 am

Old local newspapers? I appreciate that this is impossible to do from Japan but perhaps somebody nearer home, somebody with knowledge of the NE -but how to begin? if we cannot solve it, perhaps ask the archivist of Railways Archive to add it to his website and gain a wider showing in the railway community?
A topper is proper if the train's a non-stopper!

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Re: What loco?

Post by Bill Bedford » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:06 pm

hq1hitchin wrote:Old local newspapers?
A possibility, but if no one was injured then it's unlikely to be recorded. The NER's own magazine is a possibility. I believe the NRM has copies, so if someone would like to spend a couple of days being fascinated by what a wonderful railway the NER was then I think we would all appreciate it.

There is also the outside chance that someone at the NRM would recognise the photo.

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Re: What loco?

Post by 52D » Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:04 pm

I am just back online having had a problem with my router, i am glad this particular picture has stimulated the detective instincts. I like the Elswick theory and of course i like to promote the Sunderland theory but it seems as though we are still struggling to identify the location. Can anyone provide an idea of what class of loco is damaged.
In regard to breakdown cranes the NER & LNER despatched whatever was required to help even if the cranes home depot was many miles away. Gateshead and Tweedmouths cranes often worked together including at the site of the Goswick crash but Tweedmouths crane could also be seen on Tyneside so the area depicted where the accident is could be wide ranging.
I hope some one comes up with the answer soon.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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Re: What loco?

Post by Bryan » Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:55 pm

Any progress on this subject re the ID of the cranes or location?

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