Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

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61070
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Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by 61070 » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:11 pm

Here are a few more of my Dad's pictures taken at Grantham in the early 1960s, in this case some 'candid' portraits of locomotive crews waiting for the 'right away'.

I've shown these to a group of former Grantham footplatemen. They were able to identify some of their mates as the subjects of other pictures, but the men in these photos were not known to them - so they are almost certainly from other GN or NE depots on the ECML. If they are recognised by family or former colleagues they will be very welcome to a print, so do draw others' attention to these pictures and let me know if any of the men can be identified. It's very possible that 60010's fireman is still with us, although he probably hasn't lifted a shovel for a few years!

I'm advised that the man climbing aboard 60044 could be an inspector, as he's wearing a boiler suit rather than the traditional driver's/fireman's attire of bib and brace with jacket. What do people think?

The pictures are all of down trains calling at platform 3 (the present-day platform 2). The dates of the photos are 60003: 24th May 1962; 60044: Summer 1962; 60010 : 27th June 1963.

Finally I'm not sure if these should be here or in the 'people' forum - advice please Richard.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by stembok » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:46 pm

Am I correct in thinking that the driver of 60003 and the fireman of 60010 appear to be wearing the same badge ,the first in his lapel and the second in his cap? These badges may be of help identifying the shed these men belonged to as they were sometimes produced and sold as a means of raising money for charitable purposes. The man in the picture of 60044 is wearing the BR issue safety goggles issued in the early 1960s to steam footplatemen and is certainly not in usual footplate garb. The shot of 60010 showing mainly the driver, looks very like the classic buffering up to the train train pose with one hand on the vacuum brake application handle and eyes glued on the train and platform ready to apply the brake as the - in the case of 60010 - buckeye coupling engages. Given the date 27/6/63 King's Cross had (ostensibly !) closed to steam by this time and 60010 was allocated to New England, used like most of the surviving Pacifics, on a common user basis by a variety of sheds in need of power that summer. I remember her (60010) being 'stopped on Gateshead for a good spell, waiting for and under repair in the summer of 63.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by 61070 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:03 am

Many thanks for your reply Stembok. I had noticed the badges, but hadn't paid them much attention, thinking that maybe they would be standard trade union emblems. I've prepared closeup portraits that show the men's faces more clearly and demonstrate that the badges they are wearing are different, although there's insufficient definition to identify much more than outline detail. This would be of course the case if they denote an allegiance to different charitable causes. This would never have occurred to me. You can also just see that the fireman has tattooed forearms.

In addition to the closeups I'm attaching a photo of 60010 departing on the same occasion (it's just got under way, as in the immediately previous shot it's half a length further away). The shedcode plate is indeed 34E (New England). There's still a good attempt being made to maintain respectable appearance, although the buffers appear to have been painted rather than burnished. On the left, incidentally, is the two-disc banner repeater signal that I mentioned previously (for the Yard Box up main colour light starting signal).

Finally, re. the man ascending into Melton's (60044) cab. I'm attaching a nice shot of 60030 (taken on 24/5/1962) because, since I scanned these pictures and looked at them all carefully, I've always thought that it's possibly the same man - beret, goggles and general appearance - as on the 60044 shot.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by John B » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:46 am

61070, Excellent photos of how it all was and used to be.

I guess the firemans forearms are tattooed with coal dust, I know my forearms get just like that after a days firing.

My next session firing will be Good Friday :D with a 3.30am start :cry:
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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by 52A » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:05 am

The badges are both ASLEF, the driver's is a long service badge and the fireman's is the normal round pin badge. The colour of the British Railways badges could help, NE tangerine and Eastern dark blue.

I think the Driver's badge is a 30 year badge.
Last edited by 52A on Wed Apr 08, 2009 12:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by lincolnian » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:19 pm

61070 wrote: Finally, re. the man ascending into Melton's (60044) cab. I'm attaching a nice shot of 60030 (taken on 24/5/1962) because, since I scanned these pictures and looked at them all carefully, I've always thought that it's possibly the same man - beret, goggles and general appearance - as on the 60044 shot.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if you're right there, 1070, which would appear to make him the driver in both cases?
PS. 'Melton' doesn't half look good though, what a shot.
Paul M.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by stembok » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:37 pm

61070:The men on 60044 and 60030 do look very similar indeed. Wonder if this means that this particular man favoured this slightly different garb when driving. 60010 was released by Doncaster Works after a light repair on 17/6/63 (Yeadon) by which time her home shed King's Cross had closed, 16/6/63. I remember her being parked dead down by the buffer stops in the yard near the coaling stage at 52A for what seemed like a good spell that summer, presumably before being repaired. Probably, Gateshead had enough on without rushing to repair a 'foreigner' ! I was told that one weeekday evening in late June, early July 63 she had arrived at Newcastle very late on the down Heart of Midlothian substituting for a diesel .She (60010) had run hot on the journey, not sure which bearing, hence her sojourn on 52A. I remember her silver painted buffers distinctly. As 52A says its a pity we can't identify the colour of the cap badges ,which may have been a help in identification.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by 61070 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:48 pm

Appreciation again to everyone for your comments and observations. I do tend to agree with you, Lincolnian, that the man wearing the boilersuit is actually a driver (rather than an inspector as had been suggested to me). Another piece of 'circumstantial' evidence is that the driver's seat on 60044 is unoccupied - although of course the driver, if not the man in the picture, could easily be elsewhere - checking bearings down the right hand side, for example.

Thanks for identifying the badges, 52A. The older driver, wearing the long service badge, looks as if he could well have begun in GN / NE days, and maybe he fired on the main line in the '20s and '30s. If only we could step into the photo and ask him to tell us about it!

Stembok, thanks for the info about 60010's date into service after light repair and its coming to grief not many weeks later while substituting for a diesel. A Deltic history website that I've occasionally used has a growing historic database of Deltic workings (similar to that which Tommy Knox is creating for their pacific predecessors). This includes occasions when failures occurred, in which cases the substituting locomotive is often identified. If the substitution by 60010 was for a Deltic and if the failure occurred 'on the road' (i.e. the Deltic was initially on the train from King's Cross), it's possible that the occasion may be recorded there. I have tried to check this out this evening but the site, http://www.napierchronicles.co.uk/ , appears to be down at the moment.

Finally, John B, my Dad would have been delighted that his pictures are being seen and enjoyed in NZ, so thanks for your interest - and have a good day on Friday.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by stembok » Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:59 am

61070: Have found a very brief reference to 60010 summer 63 in an old note book of mine. As it was brief, I checked it out with Tommy (Knox) and he kindly verified the details from his web site, so thank you to him. The report is that 60010 arrived at Newcastle on the down Heart of Midlothian on Wednesday (?) June 26th some 60 minutes late and fairly obviously a substitute for diesel power.It then lay on Gateshead, as described previously, until 15th of August. On 17th August it worked the 07.47 York - Edinburgh parcels throughout and on 18th reportedly departed Newcastle for the south on a class 4 freight. I know that you mentioned previously that your dad was usually only able to get to Grantham on Thursdays, so I am not sure how all of this might fit. 60010 must have been out of Doncaster Works some 9 days when the failure occurred and had been there since mid-May.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by 61070 » Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:06 pm

Stembok - it's very good of you to go through your notes, and also to contact Tommy, to try to clarify the situation around 60010 and its short period of activity in the second half of June 1963. This evening I've been doing some serious checking at this end.

From Tommy's and your evidence it looks like the only Thursday that's possible is 20th June 1963. The following are my thoughts, information - and 'discoveries'!

1. Thursdays: while I think it's fairly unlikely that any Grantham pictures were taken other than on a Thursday, as Dad ran his cycle shop business pretty much entirely on his own (rarely leaving Mum 'in charge'), it could be that an occasional foray was made on a different day.

2. So, to my 'evidence' for dating the shots. The negative wallet for the film which includes the shots of 60010 and its crew is clearly endorsed, in my father's hand, ''GRANTHAM JUNE 28/63'. Now 28th June in 1963 was a Friday, so there's the first issue to resolve. I'd 'explain' this by suggesting that he processed the film the day after it was taken - or, maybe, eight days after it was taken! - and identified it by the date of processing (which is not surprising as, obviously, some films - though not this one – would include shots taken over several days).

3. But the story begins to get more interesting when I go back one frame in the sequence of shots. This, frame no.27, shows Grantham's B1 61250 drawing a Deltic-hauled train into the station from the south – see attached. The following frames, 28 and 29, are the ones of the crew of 60010, and then 30 and 31 show 60010 getting under way. To me it looks very much as if 60010 has buffered up to the ailing Deltic's train and is starting off for the north. I'd never previously linked frame 27 with 28-31 as an immediately consecutive sequence of events. However, what I've just described, especially with your analysis of the action, does look very possible.

4. I have my spotting notes made on that day. They are undated (at 8 years old perhaps I can be let off!) but the numbers 61250, D9000 and 60010 are recorded consecutively, tending to reinforce the suggestion that the above is a plausible sequence of events.

So, could this have happened on 20th June, and not 27th? It's certainly possible, in fact likely, given the info from Tommy's database. Does Tommy have any information about 60010's activities on 20th June 1963?

People on the forum are being very generous with their knowledge and experience, and I think we are getting close to shaking out the facts here. Fascinating stuff!

Finally, I've re-found the Deltic history website that I mentioned. It seems to have been re-launched with a very slightly changed name (an added hyphen!) http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/ .

And last of all, to give you all a bit of a laugh, but also a serious part of the dating 'evidence', and to prove that I was indeed there on the day – here I am. The timetable on the barrow is for ER Passenger Services 17th June to 8th September 1963.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by giner » Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:57 am

Wot? No Ian Allan ABC?

Seriously though, what an interesting thread this is turning out to be. You guys would make Sherlock Holmes proud! I can't wait for the next episode.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by stembok » Thu Apr 09, 2009 9:33 am

61070: This becomes more fascinating! It had crossed my mind that 60010 might have been substituting on the Heart of Midlothian at the time your dad took his photo .
On the 20th June Tommy has a report of 60010 working a train southbound into King's Cross so perhaps this makes this date slightly less likely, though not impossible. Of course main line steam should not have been working south of Peterborough at all by this time, but steam workings continued for some 18 months after June 1963. There was though, very little,if any, regular booked work for the remaining E R Pacifics at Peterborough, Grantham and Doncaster.
Turning now to the Heart of Midlothian. This had for over a year been a Deltic working as it was a heavily loaded and tightly timed train. It left King's Cross at 2.00 pm at this time, stopping at Peterborough and York - not Grantham - on its way north. As far as I am aware -and I may be mistaken- the down 'Heart' was worked by a York crew during this period from King's Cross to York. Perhaps someone can confirm this?
If the train is indeed the Heart of Midlothian, it's Deltic has hit problems and 61250 has been commandeered to get it to Grantham, the first available place where more suitable power might be available,possibly in the shape of 60010. Grantham shed still maintained a Pacific stand by engine at this time. As I said in a previous post, in one of the shots the driver of 60010 does appear by his pose to be backing down onto his train.
Still lots of conjecture here and insufficient to really clinch matters, but who knows another piece of the jigsaw may turn up!
PS What a well equipped young enthusiast you were, transistor radio and all? Now in my day it were a bottle of water and a jam sandwich!! "And that were luxury". (With thanks to Monty Python!)

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by 61070 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 1:16 pm

Had to have an 'evening off' yesterday!

One thing to add to the photo of the 61250/D9000 'rescue' is that, as I'm sure you will have noticed, they are signalled to stop at the station, making it more likely that some sort of substitution was to be made (that's something you couldn't tell these days by looking at a picture showing the back of a colour light signal!).

As you say Stembok, lots of conjecture and not quite enough hard fact here.

To summarise the situation so far, I think. The date when these photos were taken can be no earlier than 17/6/63, when 60010 was released from Doncaster works. My originally assigned date was 27/6/63, but this has been called into serious question because of two recorded sightings of 60010 arriving on Tyneside on 26/6/63 on The Heart of Midlothian from the south, being taken out of service there with a heated bearing, and remaining at Gateshead shed until 15th August.

Because I was there on the day, and because two of the photos show other school-age lads, if it was a weekday it would have to be during school holidays; or else it must have been a weekend, but seems too much traffic for a Sunday. If someone knows when schools broke up in England in June 1963 that might eliminate some weekday dates.

Now I'm listing below my complete spotting record for the day when we saw 60010 leaving Grantham for the north, in case this can be cross-referenced with other data held by anyone. It's just a list of numbers in chronological order – no other info, even about direction of travel if any (some locos will have been on the shed or in the yard, for example). Fortunately I'm able to annotate some of the sightings with reference to the photos taken on the same day. I can post any of those photos if people wish to see them.

90220, 60061, 60112
D9019 – frame 03: 1A35 the up Flying Scotsman
D3630, D1524, D1521, 69340, D1504, 90115
92184 – frames 11 & 12: up ironstone empties, Class H or 8, tender first, platform 2
D6576
D1518, D1503, (one of these appears on frame 14 on a down passenger service 1N1x – last figure indistinct, most likely 2, 3, 8 or 9)
D173, D354
63931 – frame 18: down LE tender first thro' platform 3
92188 – frames 19 & 20: up mixed freight, Class H or 8
D186? (indistinct)
43082 – frames 22 & 23: up, hauling Engineers' inspection saloon DE320042
90073, D9001, 92140, D175
D6800, Pullman car Car No. 78 – frame 25: up Sheffield Pullman – 6 coaches
63931 – frame 26: up ironstone empties, Class F or 7, platform 2
61250, D9000 – frame 27: down passenger train signalled to stop, platform 3
60010 – frames 28 to 31: down train leaving platform 3; silver painted buffers
D1514, D191, D190, D6570 D279? (indistinct), D170, D5829, D258, D1509, D901x (3or8) D4087, D1506, D253, 4306x (indistinct), D9007, D9003, Pullman cars Magpie and Raven, D250? (indistinct), D9016, 63940, 43062, 61392, 63968, 90119, 90453, D9005, Pullman cars Swift, Ruby, Heron and Car No.x (indistinct), D9006

I've left out some dmu car numbers to try to keep the length down. The Pullman cars would almost certainly have been part of the train hauled by the locomotive listed immediately before.

Next I'm going to cross-checking my Deltic spottings of the day on the above list with the sighting and other records available for the dates 17-27 June on the Chronicles of Napier website, to see if any of those dates can be eliminated.

giner – not sure for how much longer we can keep up the tension here.
My Ian Allan abc (E, NE and Scottish Regions, Sumer 1962 edition) is probably in the rather grand looking briefcase, which was left by a company rep at our bike shop. It's embossed inside (I still have it, and the abc) 'With the compliments of Coventry Eagle and Falcon cycles'. Now how many of you have just been reminded of your first 'proper' bike?
The transistor radio may well have been 'borrowed' from the shop stock. Dad was trying a few new lines about this time to supplement his basic trade of bicycle sales and repairs which, with the growth of car ownership, was on a bit of a decline. It's a Sanyo 10S-10PN - see http://www.transistor.org/collection/sanyo/sanyo11.html . (Going rather off topic with bikes and trannys – sorry!).

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by stembok » Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:41 pm

61070: You mention that your sightings at Grantham are in chronological order. If so, and if on time, the up Flying Scotsman with D9019 might have been expected to pass at approximately 14.25, given a 16.00 arrival in K/X. The Brush type 4 D1503? D1518? may have been on 1N19 the 13.20 K/X-Leeds, at Grantham C15.10?
The down Heart of Midlothian at 14.00 from King's Cross might have been expected to have passed Grantham at around 15.45 and I note that if this is the train, it has D9000, a Haymarket Deltic, at its head. The down 'Heart' in my note books of that time most frequently appears around this time with a Haymarket loco, suggesting a 64B diagram. The 'Heart' was booked for Deltic haulage, though later Brush Type 4s began to occasionally appear. Of course the 'Heart' ,again if this is the train, hauled by D9000 did not pass at its suggested time, due to the inevitable delay in being rescued by 61250 and then further time would be lost with the engine change to 60010. In fact the up Sheffield Pullman ,15.20 ex Sheffield, with D6800 appears to have passed Grantham before 61250 and D9000 made an appearance and the Pullman's probable booked Grantham time would, I think, likely be around 16.15-16. 30. Perhaps, this provides some food for thought. Sorry, that I cannot be more precise, what is required is access to an ER Passenger WTT June-September 1963. Perhaps a reader can help here,with passing times for the trains mentioned?
As for your school holiday, this is a tricky one as most English schools seemed to have the whitsun break which was not -I think - fixed in those days, but which would not be later than early -mid June and then broke up in July for the long summer break. Could it have been a day's holiday or half-holiday for some special occasion, which perhaps meant that you and your dad could travel to Grantham on the day in question? Just a suggestion!

P S Will hazard a guess from your notes that there was a pile up of down traffic behind 60010 due to the failure.

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Re: Photos of footplatemen at Grantham, 1962 and 1963

Post by richard » Tue Apr 14, 2009 10:24 pm

stembok: Your email address is bouncing again! (I get the site notifications bounced back in my direction).


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