Shildon - Newport electrics

[hq1hitchin]

Please look at this post and discuss, LNER Locomotives. Possibility of returning a NER locomotive to working order.

What is there to discuss? The railways can't afford proper modern AC electrics never mind obsolete DC ones.

Not so - we are still a relatively wealthy country and a.c. electrification schemes are back on the agenda, even previously unthinkable ones like electrifying the G.W to South Wales. It's just that the political will is lacking a bit - as always, they speak with forked tongues. Is there any potential for running the ES1 under the wires on a tramway system, even given the brutal live electrics in the cab, I wonder?

[jwealleans]

I read in one of the serious railway publications recently that Network Rail 'expect' to be given the go ahead to electrify the Midland and Western main lines this year. I don't think the Government can maintain any pretence of trying to meet carbon emissions targets unless they commit to this kind of project.

Preserved electric traction is another matter altogether - am I not right in thinking that some preservation schemes for EMUs have had to be abandoned because of a lack of suitable facilities to maintain and run them? Setting up and maintaining the infrastructure would be financially formidable apart from the (wild guess) mass of H & S legislation which you'd have to tackle. Unless there is still a system extant and working I find it hard to see this coming to pass.

[hq1hitchin]

To my shame, I've never taken much interest in tramway systems but would it be technically possible, all other considerations apart, for the ES1 to run at Crich - or even Blackpool? Was told this week that they have a fleet of museum cars available for charter work there.

Think you're right about running EMUs on preserved lines with electric traction, jwealleans, getting approval for third rail or an overhead system would probably be impossible. One bit of electrified railway which must rate as one of the shortest in the country was the test stretch inside Derby Works which was used for testing Electrostars a few years ago - I presume it is still there?

[richard]

The Bluebell have long term plans (ie. after East Grinstead is open) of opening the Ardingley Branch which I think they already own? Anyway, third rail is usually mentioned in the same sentence. No good for the ES1, but in another 10-20 years perhaps there will be some working 3rd rail in preservation.


Richard

[hq1hitchin]

The Bluebird have long term plans (ie. after East Grinstead is open) of opening the Ardingley Branch which I think they already own? Anyway, third rail is usually mentioned in the same sentence. No good for the ES1, but in another 10-20 years perhaps there will be some working 3rd rail in preservation.


Richard

The Bluebell do own most of the trackbed, certainly, but I think the HMRI have more or less kicked the idea of a live juice rail into touch? Also, there is a diehard 'steam only' element on that railway who strongly object to anything other than steam traction being used. It is a shame, though, as there are quite a few d.c. EMU sets in existence with nowhere to run. There is also a Shenfield EMU set, stored at MoD Kineton, heaven knows what fate awaits that. Quite a modern design for its time, too.

[52D]

I occasionally have to service the Crane in Crich restoration workshop, next time im up in the hills i will ask the guys what would prevent ES1 running on their tramway. I would love to see it running. I never saw it running in service.
What voltage do Blackpool trams run at is it the same as Crich, was there a standard voltage for street tramways.

[Bryan]

Preserved electric traction is another matter altogether - am I not right in thinking that some preservation schemes for EMUs have had to be abandoned because of a lack of suitable facilities to maintain and run them?

The LMS 502 unit ex Liverpool - Southport 1938 stock.
This was preserved by the NRM and used to be based at Steamport Southport.
It was restored by the volunteers there and actually ran under its own power on the Liverpool - Southport after restoration, just like a current preserved main line steamer, however since those days it has now been delisted by the NRM and is in a dire state of repair and looking for a home. There has been a recent thread about it on the Nat Pres site.
The situation was not helped by the move of the museum from Southport to a new setup at Preston.
Unfortunately the EMU did not fit in with the new sites aims and facilities. So I am led to believe.

[Rlangham]

Eden Valley Railway uses third rail EMU's, but battery powered, it says that they charged the batteries from the third rail and it gave them about 20 minutes running time, but not sure how it works on the preserved railway with no third rail, presumably hook it up to a larger battery

http://www.evr.org.uk/

Perhaps a similar method could be used on the NER parcels van

http://www.ntsra.org.uk/parcels.html

[third-rail]

Eden Valley Railway uses third rail EMU's, but battery powered, it says that they charged the batteries from the third rail and it gave them about 20 minutes running time, but not sure how it works on the preserved railway with no third rail, presumably hook it up to a larger battery

http://www.evr.org.uk/

Perhaps a similar method could be used on the NER parcels van

http://www.ntsra.org.uk/parcels.html

regret ner parcels van has no electric equipment on board it had to be hauled round the system, re 1500v dc the only section that i know wired for br loading gauge is the section of heavy rail track between sunderland and pelaw on the coastal route to middlesbough,this section of overheads is owned and maintained by network rail,there is/was another section between benton and fawdon,but when the south to west junction was removed it may well have lowered

[61070]

would it be technically possible, all other considerations apart, for the ES1 to run at Crich - or even Blackpool?

There will be others more knowledgeable than me on this, especially the folk at Crich, but I believe one of the main problems limiting interoperability is the wheel tread profile, in particular the much larger flange on heavy rail wheelsets by comparison with those used on street-running tramways. Heavy rail flange profiles are too large (in both width and depth) for the flangeway that is integral with the street tramway railhead. Historically there has been interoperation of heavy rail wagons with street tramway networks, certainly in Glasgow in the viscinity of some of the shipyards (using the shipyards' industrial locos - both steam and electric), and it was possible there because the gauge of the tramways in the several interconnected systems in the Clyde Valley was reduced from standard to 4'-7.75". This allowed the heavy rail wagons to run on their flange edges in the tramway flangeways. The ex-Glasgow and ex-Paisley trams at Crich have been regauged (widened) by 0.75" to enable them to run on a standard gauge system.

Here is a link to some info about a preserved DC bogie centre cab electric loco which occasionally runs on battery power: http://www.ntsra.org.uk/resources/34all.pdf (pages 15-17). Not strictly (L)NER in origin but certainly in the right territory; also, the Chairman of the Harton Coal Co. at the time of its introduction was on the NER board. E4 was at the NRM's RailFest event in 2004.

[60041]

I know that things are getting silly, but what about the Old Dalby Test Track, I think it still has OHLE that can be energised at different voltages, and it is now privately owned which would get aroud the Network Rail approval problem.

[52D]

I pass Old Dalby quite often and never thought about variable test voltages, I have some mates that work in Derby works i will get them to find out what voltages are available,

[Bryan]

For a time the Sandtoft trolleybus museum near Doncaster ran its vehicles with a generator in a trailer.
Could something similar work?

[Rlangham]

Does anyone have a digital image of EF1 No 11 with the female cleaners on it during WW1, as used in the Ken Hoole book on North Eastern Electric Locomotives?


Also, aside from the above mentioned book, and 'Shildon-Newport in retrospect' (which I haven't got yet), are there any other books worth getting regarding the electrification of the Shildon-Newport line?

[Bryan]

It might be worth contacting the Ken Hoole centre at North Rd direct.
If you talk to Leona she may be able to locate the photo for you.