Pre-modernisation Scene

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manna
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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by manna » Fri Nov 13, 2009 10:14 am

G'Day Gents
Very annoying that, I spent about an hour and a half writting one out complete with pics, pressed submit, Bingo, Gone Bu****?? :x
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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by Flamingo » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:36 pm

StevieG wrote: But having spent about 3 hours carefully composing it all, pressing 'go' has just made the bl***y lot vanish into the ether, substituted by the 'Login' page re-appearing, and I've been unable to find a way of retrieving it!

Anyone know if there's a time limit on being logged in / compiling a post to, this Forum ???!!!

May have another go at writing it up, when I feel like it, and have the time.
I know the feeling. There doesn't seem to be any way of retrieving what has been typed once it's been snaffled up by the Net Monster. The reason could be timing out but if so that might be something to do with browser settings rather than this forum. The same thing has happened to me on other message boards. The best thing to do - if it's a long message and you can remember to do it- is to copy and save what was typed before pressing the submit button. If then the message vanishes, at least you have kept a copy of it.

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by 52D » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:51 pm

You have my sympathys gents i too am a victim of the electron snaffler.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by Boris » Fri Nov 13, 2009 5:25 pm

The transposition was every 1/4 mile on voice lines otherwise overlapping could and did occur.
The others could well have been non voice lines ie Bell or even power lines
On the G.P.O the top saddle lines were nearly always to the bookies office in the nearest village.
We used to tap in and listen to the racing commentary during our snap break.
We once worked on a line to the south of Worksop and on the other side of the road was a 450volt power line running parallel.
When making a joint on a G.P.O line , ie holding one end of a wire in each hand, we could get a right old shock, much more than the normal 12 volt line volt we were used to getting especially on damp foggy days.
EX DARNALL 39B FIREMAN 1947-55

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by Bryan » Fri Nov 13, 2009 7:30 pm

Somebody had a similar problem on another site.
But this was to do with editing a previously posted message.

The answer received was that they thought there was a 5 minute time limit on editing a post.
How official this is I do not know.

Another helpful suggestion was:-
Shouldn't be in such a rush. Use the preview option and you can edit for as long as you like before you submit.

Personally if I have a long message to post I write it up in Word offsite and then copy it over.

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61070
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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by 61070 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 9:05 pm

StevieG: having asked you for the information all I can say is that I'm very grateful that you took the trouble to set it down. I'll look forward to reading whatever you are able to tell us, if and when that's possible sometime. I share your sense of annoyance and frustration because, like the others, I've had exactly the same happen to me. I too have taken to the 'copy and paste from Word' method. It also has the advantages of spell checking etc., and you don't need to finish it all off in the one session - if, say, you decide that you need to scan another photo, hunt for another bit of info somewhere, or get an unnatural urge to help out with the ironing...(!?)

I find also that once you get to more than 3 or 4 paragraphs the scrolling setup seems to develop a life of its own, making the text at the bottom of the post very difficult to edit. Does anyone else have this problem too?

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by StevieG » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:54 am

Bryan wrote: .... " Another helpful suggestion was:-
Shouldn't be in such a rush. Use the preview option and you can edit for as long as you like before you submit.
Personally if I have a long message to post I write it up in Word offsite and then copy it over. "
Thanks All.
Just tonight (Friday), on another forum which looks and operates very similarly, I forgot precautions, and lost another longish piece, but it was when pressing "Preview"!

Composing first in 'Word' is a good one.
The 'Copy before posting' idea was sometimes also a good idea on this other forum, but it's been about 18 months since this problem occurred for me, and some time ago I'd got out of the habit again, lulled in an apparently false sense of security.
Thanks for advice/comments.
BZOH

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by StevieG » Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:35 am

on 10th Nov., I wrote:Relating to a mention re (telegraph) pole routes in a post of recent hours in the "Green Arrow" topic in this "LNER Photographs" section, just thought I'd share this pic.amongst us [no Green Arrow ((no locos!) ], -
- pole routes feature here (there's one along on the left - clearer if enlarged - but also there's slight indications of one along on the right as well!) - New Barnet's south end, looking south, approx. early 1970. [This is an old scan, done on a Minolta Dimage Elite Scan 5400 film scanner, so takes no heed of the good tips in previous 'Green Arrow' posts.]
scan.Color N.Barnet Sth.vw Sth.from LocalSdg 1200dpi (slight crop'd).JPG
This was then followed by :
StevieG (on 13th Nov.) wrote:
61070 wrote:StevieG - your 'chapter and verse' on the signalling in your photo would be appreciated by me, for one. Are we to understand that 'a little accident' befell the predecessor of the more modern bracket arrangement??
Bryan wrote:I have a copy of a 1935 pole route transposition diagram. 35-ES-371
Showing which wires to move to different positions at varying intervals depending on which arm they are carried on.
eg. Arm 1 wires move every 2 miles whereas the 4th arm changes at 1/4 mile intervals mainly and occaisional extension to 1/2 mile.
Excuse my ignorance guys, but can someone say why? I'm intrigued. The only thing I can think of is to reduce interference through 'mutual inductance' between the wires - is that right? Why, then, different intervals for different wires? It seems to me that on the railway there's more to almost everything than the casual observer appreciates.
Well I thought I'd now be posting the signalling etc. 'answer' as requested, and at some length.

But having spent about 3 hours carefully composing it all, pressing 'go' has just made the bl***y lot vanish into the ether, substituted by the 'Login' page re-appearing, and I've been unable to find a way of retrieving it!

Anyone know if there's a time limit on being logged in / compiling a post to, this Forum ???!!!

May have another go at writing it up, when I feel like it, and have the time.
[ Apologies for extended delay before this post; unexpectedly had to be away for a while, with only brief internet access opportunities, plus reduced time to do this properly recently : I've not been sulking all this time!

Right, specially for 61070 and others who may also have patiently been waiting, - you asked for it!


( In view of time elapsed since I originally posted the photo, I attach it here again, above, for easier scrutiny.)

A wintry view looking south at New Barnet in early 1970.

The assorted vehicles in the up yard may be of interest, including the converted (Gresley?) coach, probably for use as a mess & tool van.

The four foremost tracks visible are, left to right; the up yard Shed Side Road, the Up Goods line, Local Siding (referring to a previous comment, possibly laid on concrete sleepers by the look of what's visible of their profile; frequently used for overnight or other stabling of a train of suburban stock for and/or after 'peak' service), and the Up Slow. The Up and Down Fasts pass on the far side of the up side island platform, with the other Down lines beyond the second island.

Moving from foreground towards the background, first we see, on the right, an early style fluorescent, platform lamppost : A KX area maintenance gentleman has told me that this was an old Eastern Region class A "Cold Cathode" type, on a concrete column, which were 'pigs to deal with', and all of them through the area were replaced with modern fluorescent "raise and lowers" when the electrification came, with the exception, for some time, of those on the almost-disused centre island between the Fast lines at Hadley Wood.

Next come all the up home signals for New Barnet South signal box. Left to right, these are for; along the Up Goods line, Up Goods to Up Slow, along Up Slow with outer distant arm for Oakleigh Park box, Up Slow to Up Fast also with Oakleigh Park distant (via Up Slow to Up Fast ‘turnout’ crossover just beyond the signal), and finally, on what seems to be part of a tall former semaphore's post, the Up Fast colour-light home signal, of ‘searchlight’ type; - this signal post looks possibly old enough to have carried the Up Fast 'somersault' home signal for the old Barnet No.2 'box (See below).
This colour-light signal is pictured in its later form, as adapted with the additional upper lens to make display of the double yellow indication possible, as, by this time, the signal, as well as acting as Oakleigh Park’s inner distant, was also acting as the outer distant for Cemetery ‘box. A solitary ground disc is also just identifiable straight ahead, for Local Siding to Up Slow moves. Another, further away at the other end of the same points, and facing south, was for the opposite move from the US into the siding, but is not discernible here.
Theoretically in shot, but difficult to see, beyond the vehicles in the yard were the the south end exit points onto the Up Goods, also with their own shunting disc signal at each end.

Posts asking about some of what could seem to be tech.'y signalling jargon used here, are welcome.

Next, at centre, is New Barnet South signal box. Note the telegraph pole just to its left. Many of the ‘box’s line wires for signalling and communications went across-track from this pole to the additional pole opposite, to the left, in the up side pole route.

Continuing towards the background, you may see Oakleigh Park’s single arm Up Goods distant signal (which stood outside the up yard shunting spur), and the bracket signal carrying the South ‘box Up Slow starting signal with Oakleigh Park’s inner distant below (and which, up to the 1930s at least, also had equivalent signals for the Up Fast on its right-hand end). [ What may be seen looking like another, overly long signal arm floating above and right of this signal, should be disregarded - it is some sort of 'foreign body' accidentally captured in scanning.] Then, to the right, the South’s down lines home signals gantry with lower distant arms for New Barnet North ‘box. Left to right, as pictured, these were for along the Down Fast, Down Fast to Down Slow, along Down Slow, and along Down Goods. The space between the third and fourth dolls on the gantry had previously been occupied by a fifth, carrying former Down Goods to Down Slow home and distant arms.

To the right of South box, in a gap between clumps of trees, a double telegraph pole may just be apparent; one of those forming the down side pole route which at this point was some distance from the tracks, running near to the railway boundary alongside York Road, and another is at the photo's extreme right.

The comparative modernity of the Up Slow home signals structure may be noted, while all the others were still lattice-posts of Great Northern Railway origin.
It is understood that during a late 1950s/early ‘60s incidence of the regular weekday shunting manoeuvre from the Local Siding to the Up Slow platform to form an originating up 'peak' service, the Siding - Up Slow points were normalised a little late, after the un-signalled setting back move to the Up Slow platform, (authorised by a wave, or lever duster held out, from an open box window), had already begun. As a result, the train's leading bogie was directed back into the Local Siding, but the rest of the train went straight back along the intended Up Slow route. The leading coach thus went cross-wise, demolishing the predecessor lattice post bracket signal before being stopped; hence the B.R. Eastern Region style replacement structure pictured here.

The area’s signal box arrangements of this time dated from an LNER late 1920s/early 30s period of mechanical signal box amalgamations. The GN ‘box on or very near the site of New Barnet South had been designated No.1, and signalled only the down lines, the up lines being worked from a No.2. box just south of the up platform. The later New Barnet North ‘box had been No. 3, and in GN times, heading north from King’s Cross, was the first main line 'box which controlled all lines at its location.

Right until closure, the pictured LNER South ‘box had a McKenzie & Holland locking frame of 55 levers, plus one Annetts Key lock arrangement for switching out, which facilitated transferring control of some mechanical signals to North ‘box. Controlling the six running lines, South’s signalling equipment included twelve block bells, the greatest number to be found in any London area GNR ‘box; an ‘honour’ shared with Finsbury Park No.3, but arguably also with Harringay West Station ‘box (colloquially well known as 'Harringay Passenger' as it controlled none of the Goods lines on either side of the passenger lines) which had ten block bells, plus two ‘interlocking bells’ for signalling movements through points connections jointly worked with the Goods Lines ‘boxes.

South ‘box was abolished within weeks of this picture, later in 1970, along with Oakleigh Park, as the first ‘boxes to close as a direct result of the King’s Cross re-signalling scheme; control of the area then being exercised from New Barnet North 'box using a small control panel of no more than 30 switches which supplanted the 75-lever frame there.


After the early comments about the telegraph wires in the "Green Arrow" thread, and further ones from 61070 and Bryan about it in this thread, I think there might've been yet a further mention somewhere, of them, and pole routes, and how the wires didn't go from one
pole to the next in absolutely parallel lines (or I might be thinking of another, non-"LNER", forum).
Anyway, in case of interest in that subject, (& thanks to Bryan for his post's details - I think he's given info. additional to what I'm about to write here) I remember from a technical course I went on at Crewe (yes, I am washing my mouth out), the wires were arranged by a system called 'transposition', which I think was seeking to avoid induction interference between adjacent wires by altering their relative positions, and thus the phases of such interference, in order to make it self-cancel.
Believe this involved what was taught as the ABACABAD system, where wires between adjacent poles were 'rotated' to differing positions on the poles' cross-bars relative to each other, each 'group' of wires being connected in a pattern; - Pattern A on one pole, B the next, then A, then C, and so on.
I don't recall in precise technicality why/how this helped, or whether it was for all wires or only those providing telephony, or whatever, etc., [ remembering that such as Block and bell circuits, signal arm and lamp repeaters, single-needle telegraph circuits (yes, even they were still around until 1969/70), and Control Office, as well as ordinary/local 'bus, 'phone circuits were run through these wires ]. (I wasn't too interested in the technicalities at the time : Starting in the S&T for only 18 months, then becoming an operator these last 38 years may help explain why).

The above pole route explanation may not be quite right, but suffice to say that the wires certainly didn't necessarily run 'straight' from pole to pole in strict parallelism.

[ Edited several times around 22:30 08 Dec 09, for a few minor points of grammar and clarification, plus a very few items of additional content, showing in bold text.]
Last edited by StevieG on Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
BZOH

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ajax103
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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by ajax103 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:18 pm

Oh wow, that really is a beautiful sight, thanks for sharing, :)

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61070
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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by 61070 » Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:41 pm

StevieG: What a fascinating read that's been – very well worth the wait, and many thanks for taking the trouble. So much to see in just one photograph of 'infrastructure' – and not a train in sight. It just goes to show that there's a world of railway interest beyond motive power and rolling stock, much as we admire them too.

The history of the 'boxes and the track layout is interesting, and it demonstrates that there's nothing fixed for long on a busy main line railway as traffic patterns and workings evolve, and technology enables safer working in fewer hands (except for the occasional little 'mishap', as described). But 12 block bells in one 'box amazes me. Was there usually a 'lad' on shift there to help out?

Your photograph must have left an impression on me as I was looking through the current (December) issue of Steam Days recently when I saw in a photograph (p758) the distinctive outline of that up fast colour light signal, and instantly I thought 'New Barnet' without even a glance at the caption (or the station nameboard on the right of the photo).

Finally for now, I was very pleased that you drew attention to the platform lamp post because, believe it or not, that's the one part of your description that I am able to link to with one of my own photographs! Yes, here we are on our holidays at Cromer c.1960 (my sister and me, watched over by Mum; possibly during the same holiday week as the shot elsewhere of us climbing on the crossing gates at Sheringham - level-crossings-the-way-we-were-or-coul ... t2788.html ). Look at the fine row of 'Eastern Region Class A cold cathode fluorescent lamps on concrete columns', as I now know how to describe them. What a pity there's a locomotive in shot to spoil it all!
Last edited by 61070 on Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:02 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by R. pike » Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:30 pm

I may be wrong but i'm sure these lamps survive at Sheringham. The Cromer Beach legend has been obscured but is visible if you look closely..

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by StevieG » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:10 am

61070 wrote: " .... But 12 block bells in one 'box amazes me."....
Eight of BS's bells remained busy enough to the end, but the 4 for the Goods lines were mostly silent, though doubtless wouldn't have been 20 years earlier. But 12 pales into insignificance compared to some other places: the most I heard of was the chocolate & cream railway's 1930s 368(?)-slide lever, power-operated Temple Meads East, reputed to have had 23 at its zenith.
61070 wrote: " .... Was there usually a 'lad' on shift there to help out? " ....
Never heard of a telegraph lad being required there as far as I'm aware (note the job title, as, rather than the more common 'booking lad', on the ex-GN they usually also needed to be competent as morse telegraphists on the 'single needle') . There was however, one at New Barnet North on earlys and lates until around the time of the 1970 photo, (whose duties included occasional use of these....).
scan.Color N.Barnet Nth.Telegr.Insts.800dpi.JPG
By this time (the late 1960s), I think the only other London and home counties boxes still to have 'lads' that I'm aware of, were - KX, Fins.Park Nos.3 and 6, Potters Bar, Welwyn GC and Hitchin Yard. There had been more elsewhere, I suspect when the 'boxes were probably the communications centre for virtually everything at stations ; - perhaps the most use of the telegraph was in receiving and sending telegrams, e.g. for the station, goods clerk, etc., on a big variety of subjects, like parcels, goods and pigeon traffic, and also for distributing the relief signalmen's 'orders' (duties) for the following week (a lot of signalmen's ears listened more intently to those messages as they tick-tocked out).
But by the time I was able to start getting the 'inside' view, the telegraph's use was down to just about only "MT" (train reporting) messages; some routine for every passage of certain classes of trains, others by exception (e.g. running out of normal order, or late by a certain number of minutes or more). Each 'sending' box once had its own telegraph instructions, setting out each class of train to be 'wired on', in what circumstances, and to which place(s).
Perhaps the most obvious routine example was that KX box received passing time messages of all Class 1 (Express passenger) up trains from Crescent Junction, Hitchin South and Hatfield No.1, and this info was used to inform various station staff of the trains' actual punctuality, including the train arrivals board operator to enable estimated arrival times to be displayed.

Other boxes I heard of once having had 'lad's are :
Goods & Mineral [reputedly the only place that was so busy, including with at least 3, or up to 6, Goods Yard pilot locos on the go, shunting (depended who told the story and how much they wanted to impress), that the 'black mac'd District Inspector did not frown upon finding the lad helping the signalman work the box (probably not dealing with pass'r trains had something to do with it) ],
Holloway North Up, Finsbury Park 5, Hornsey Up Goods (I believe), New Southgate, Hatfield 1 (I think), and Hitchin South.

I like the Cromer picture!
Last edited by StevieG on Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by R. pike » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:48 am

I like the wiggly tin extension to the sounders.. I vaguely remember hearing the telegraph in use because i asked a signalman what it was and remember his reply. He seemed to think two 'old boys' used to knatter on it from time to time because no one could understand what they were saying... In my last visit to Three Counties the instrument had gone and there was a shadow where it had been. The box closed when i was ten years old so as i say it's all a bit vague..

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by 61070 » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:05 am

Re the lamp posts Richard, I've just been looking at Sheringham pictures via Google, and presumably they are the ones on the left in this photo: http://www.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/01 ... 55c096.jpg . Hopefully I'll be able to see for myself in March, as the NNR has kindly invited my sister and me to the opening of the new crossing - as a gesture for the use in due course of the photo of us on the crossing gates.

StevieG: the background on the telegraph instruments and the difference between a booking lad and a telegraph lad is much appreciated. I very clearly remember a single needle telegraph instrument tinkling away in the Yard Box at Grantham during my occasional vists there. I've found this shot of signalman Jock Drummond, caught mid-sandwich, in the Yard Box on 16th April 1964 with the telegraph seen behind him near the window. Can anyone spot his brand of cigarettes?
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13-Grantham-YardBoxSignalman 16Apr64.jpg

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Re: Pre-modernisation Scene

Post by R. pike » Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:24 am

Another brilliant picture! Most people don't turn the camera on thing's other than the levers, instruments and box diagram. I found when i rebuilt the four signalboxes i'm involved with i had no pictures of the rear wall, booking shelf and telephones. I no longer make this mistake if i visit a box. Pictures of signalmen doing anything other than pulling levers are rare.

I hope to see you at the NNR for the crossing opening...

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