Identifying locations – help please

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upney sidings
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Identifying locations – help please

Post by upney sidings » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:21 pm

A friend has recently acquired a collection of 35mm black & white negatives - undocumented of course - and has asked if I would help to identify the locations depicted therein. I’ve uploaded most of them to my Fotopic gallery in the collection I keep to one side for just such queries:
http://gallery62603.fotopic.net/c1553144.html

Some of them are readily identifiable (Theobalds Grove because the name is clearly shown in the images) but I’ve uploaded them anyway because they might help to provide context for those in close proximity.

Many of the shots seem to have been taken at or near Theobalds Grove which, according to my only source, re-opened to passenger traffic in 1960 having been redundant since 1919 although the permanent way had remained in use it seems. The two shots of ex-GCR locos were very likely taken at Neasden and they seem to have the shot of ex-works Britannia 70016 sandwiched between but I don’t associate Brits with the Great Central. The film has allegedly a ‘date’ of 1960 but perhaps someone knows when 70016 had a major overhaul around that time which would be very helpful to know.

Your help in identifying the locations and the approximate date for these shots would be appreciated.

Regards,

Mike Morant
My collection of archive images: http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/

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Flamingo
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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by Flamingo » Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:55 pm

I ought to know Theobalds Grove having grown up in the area but at that time the line was still closed, so I never went there. The 2 N5s were both Neasden engines. By 1959 N5s were placed in store there so the shots may date from a year or two before 1960. Two pictures that you suggested as Bow Road were definitely taken at Stratford Low Level.

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by Bryan » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:12 pm

The majority of the shots seem to be a record of the route through a PW renewal.
They are not of a demolition as new rail is laid sleeper end / 4ft and new Flat bottom rail and Pan fitted sleepers are laid on new ballast.
Photo 6 Is this bridge being widened? As the walls give the appearance of work in progress.
Did the line extend through to Bow rd?
I do not know the area at all.

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by AndyRush » Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:34 pm

The first 22 all appear to be on the Churchbury loop. I've posted comments on the Fotopic site and will continue the exercise after dinner ! If anybody has any quarrel with my conclusions, please let me know

Andy

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by AndyRush » Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:20 pm

That's it, I've done my bit ! Any more interesting GE area ones to come, Mike ?

I don't know anything about Neasden, so I can't comment on the last 3 pictures. Although 70016 was a Canton engine in the latter part of the 1950's, the location could still be Neasden, the engine being there in connection with one of the frequent exhibitions held in Marylebone Goods Yard. No doubt somebody somewhere will have all the chuffers at these exhibitions underlined !

Andy

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by upney sidings » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:25 am

Thank you to all who have contributed to this thread. One shouldn't perhaps single out an individual but I feel that Andy's massive off-list contribution is worthy of a special mention. The contributions thus far (up to 2300 on Thursday 18th Feb.) are now in place for all to see. Notes from me below:
The majority of the shots seem to be a record of the route through a PW renewal. They are not of a demolition
As I undersdand it the shots depict the early stages of the upgrade process prior to the re-opening of the Churchbury loop in 1960 as an electrified line. The owner of the negatives has taken a stab at the year the shots were taken as 1960 but I think he's wildly wrong as Andy has pointed out although I'd noted myself that the ex-works J39 (6480?) wears the lion and wheel crest which dates it to 1957 at the latest and is more likely to be late 1956 in my opinion.
Although 70016 was a Canton engine in the latter part of the 1950's, the location could still be Neasden, the engine being there in connection with one of the frequent exhibitions held in Marylebone Goods Yard. No doubt somebody somewhere will have all the chuffers at these exhibitions underlined !
Thanks for pointing that out, Andy. I've found it very difficult to nail down exhibition dates generally but they do turn up in the end. I don't think I promoted my last Fotopic upload in this forum for some reason but there's an exhibition shot of 8900 http://gallery62603.fotopic.net/p62755641.html amongst the set.
Two pictures that you suggested as Bow Road were definitely taken at Stratford Low Level.
Absolutely so. My reasoning for the original suggestion is too embarassing to record here. Apologies to all.
The 2 N5s were both Neasden engines. By 1959 N5s were placed in store there so the shots may date from a year or two before 1960.
Agreed. See the note above about the date for these shots as they all emanate from the same roll of film I believe.
Any more interesting GE area ones to come, Mike ?
I still have a few awaiting the light of day but they're the inevitable loco portraits. In the pipeline are recently acquired pre-war negatives of the W1 on shed at what I think is Cambridge, a GNoSr Z4 or Z5 (a cracking shot by the looks of it) and I'm pretty sure there's an E4 in the mix as well. Again, not GER but on LNER home ground are what look to be some nice action shots of A1's and A3's in colour plus some more GCR shots on glass negatives. Queued up for some time are some M&GN loco pictures and there are at least seven more in my most recent bulk acquisition.

The first priority for upload to my railways gallery is to show off the splendid Irish material I've accumulated from seven sources over the last five years. I mentioned them as an aside in a couple of e-group postings and showed one of them off in my last upload with the result that I've been inundated with requests to upload as soon as poss. All in good time.

A lengthy message above but worth doing I think. If one asks for help then I believe that responding to the help given is of great importance.

Regards to all,

Mike M.
My collection of archive images: http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by AndyRush » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:26 am

Mike

We might be able to get closer to the date of the photos by the shopping date of the J39. By my reckoning, it can only be 64826 (IPS) outshopped from a Heavy General at Stratford in August 1957 or 64829 (IPS) outshopped from a Heavy General at Stratford in October 1957.

Please keep it dark that I have chuffer books to refer to ! In this case, Yeadon's Register Vol.11.

Regards

Andy

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by stembok » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:55 am

Mike Morant: The Britannia 70016 was ,I believe, the first locomotive to display the second version of the BR crest introduced in 1956/1957 -see tender in photograph- and given its ex- works condition and show finish it may well have been summoned to Marylebone (Neasden) for inspection and media coverage.

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by upney sidings » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:19 pm

Thank you gentlemen and the saga continues.
We might be able to get closer to the date of the photos by the shopping date of the J39. By my reckoning, it can only be 64826 (IPS) outshopped from a Heavy General at Stratford in August 1957 or 64829 (IPS) outshopped from a Heavy General at Stratford in October 1957.
The visible number is definitely 6480x with the final digit frustratingly completely obscured by the handrail.
The Britannia 70016 was, I believe, the first locomotive to display the second version of the BR crest introduced in 1956/1957 -see tender in photograph- and given its ex- works condition and show finish it may well have been summoned to Marylebone (Neasden) for inspection and media coverage.
A very interesting point and thank you for mentioning it. You could well be right. Now, if someone could track that event down then we would be very close to a date.

There have been some postings in answer to my same request on the LNER-list. The interest surrounds Image 21 & 22 which is the apparently abandoned Churchbury station building. The summarised notes are:
The station building picture labelled 20&21 appears to have the word Middlesex
built into the brickwork with what appears to be two words underneath.....
...... I too noted that feature could it be Asylum, Sanitorium or Hospital
The top line is, indeed, Middlesex. The first word on the lower line is 'Ladies' but the second word is illegible I'm afraid.

Regards,

Mike M.
My collection of archive images: http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/

stembok
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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by stembok » Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:48 pm

Mike Morant: TI for August 1956. Editorial note p.358 concerning appearance of new BR emblem first unveiled on 70016 in June 1956. Possible ceremony at Marylebone as within easy reach of BR HQ? It was some months later that the new emblem began to make a general appearance on stock.

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by Andy W » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:12 pm

Just done the WR shopping records at the PRO for the Standards!

70016 was on Crewe between 18/4/56 & 1/6/56 for a HG (224878 miles since new) so, with the TI reference as additional evidence, I think we can safely say that this shot was taken in June 1956.

The J39 could be one out of two. The most likely is 64802 (a Norwich engine) which Yeadon Vol.11 has on Stratford for a G between 2/5/56 and 16/6/56. Frustratingly 64803 (Cambridge) was on Stratford for a C/L between 1/5/56 and 1/6/56 and as it was only out-shopped after a G in December 1955, could also be a candidate depending on what the repair was, what (if anything) was re-painted and how well it was cleaned after repair.

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by upney sidings » Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:03 am

Thanks, Andy. Excellent background data.

Mike M.
My collection of archive images: http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by Bryan » Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:28 pm

Just had another look at the track in some of the photos.
It appears as if some at least is of Mills fitted concrete sleepers or F7 type.
These only came into common use 1957
Normal practice, as far as I know, would be for the latest type of sleper to firstly undergo a few trial installations somewhere they can be monitored.
Then priority would be then given to higher category lines for the newest materials i.e. ECML etc.
Could this be a trial site for the pre production F7 Concrete sleeper?

http://www.mmrs.org.uk/technical/track2.html

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Re: Identifying locations – help please

Post by upney sidings » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:16 pm

The Britannia 70016 was ,I believe, the first locomotive to display the second version of the BR crest introduced in 1956/1957 -see tender in photograph- and given its ex- works condition and show finish it may well have been summoned to Marylebone (Neasden) for inspection and media coverage.

TI for August 1956. Editorial note p.358 concerning appearance of new BR emblem first unveiled on 70016 in June 1956. Possible ceremony at Marylebone as within easy reach of BR HQ? It was some months later that the new emblem began to make a general appearance on stock.

70016 was on Crewe between 18/4/56 & 1/6/56 for a HG (224878 miles since new) so, with the TI reference as additional evidence, I think we can safely say that this shot was taken in June 1956.
The quotes above have been amlgamated from earlier messages and all are either spot on or on the right track if you'll please pardon the pun.

My friend Peter Kellet has once again kindly delved into his RO's and has sent me the following quote:

"The Railway Observer Vol. XXVI No.329 (July 1956) reports on page 198 the following.

NEW B.R.BADGE - The badge comprises a demi-lion rampant (the British lion) holding between the paws a silver locomotive wheel. The lion is issuant from an heraldic crown of gold on which are arranged the rose (for England), the thistle (for Scotland), the leek (for Wales), and the oak-leaf (for all Great Britain). The whole is enclosed in a gold circle and flanked by the words British Railways in serif gold lettering.

The badge was designed in consultation with Dr. CAH Franklyn, MA, MD, MRCS, FLS, FSA (Scot.), and has been approved by the College of Arms in England and by the Lyon Court in Scotland.

The first locomotive to display the new badge was 70016 Ariel, at Marylebone, on 21st June (1956). The new emblem will be affixed to locomotives, power coaches of electric and diesel multiple stock and coaches of certain express trains."

That clears the query up comprehensively I think.

Regards to all,

Mike M.
My collection of archive images: http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/

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