Returning to Grantham

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workev
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by workev »

John,

The Summer 1951 CWN shows a 7-coach rake forming a Derby-Mablethorpe service on Saturdays only, but without the WTT I am unsure of the routing. Given the fact that it is an BR(E) CWN I can only assume that this went via Grantham.

If you are looking at late 50s I will need to track down a different CWN.

The more research I do the more I realise how busy Grantham was, and not just the ECML Pacifics!

Ian
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strang steel
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by strang steel »

I don't think many (if any) of those holiday trains would have gone via Grantham. They were routed via Allington and Barkston East, as were the Nott Vic and Leics Belgrave Rd services.
John. My spotting log website is now at https://spottinglogs.co.uk/spotting-rec ... s-70s-80s/
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workev
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by workev »

John,

I suspect you are right, but don't forget that there were Grantham-Leicester services at this time too. The earliest WTT I have is 1953 I think, but I would see no reason as to this being any different from 1950. I will take a look when able.

Ian
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1H was 2E
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 1H was 2E »

Did any of the coastal services from the Midland go Allington Junction - Barkston E to avoid reversal at Grantham?
Sorry hadn't read the last post but one!
LNER4479
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by LNER4479 »

workev wrote: The more research I do the more I realise how busy Grantham was, and not just the ECML Pacifics!
Tell me about it!!

Coming to Nottingham show this weekend at all? I shall be there with a bit of 4mm, 1930's Grantham.
(recreating pre-war Grantham in model form http://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9076.
Forthcoming exhibition appearances: Newcastle (Nov 2023); York (Easter 2024); Bristol (May 2024)
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61070
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 61070 »

workev wrote:Going back to the Britain from Above photos I think I can add a little more detail.

from EAW028682 and EAW028684.

Ok, the J6 (I think) in Platform 4 is on the 3.50pm to Lincoln (Twin(BT(6)CL(2-5),BCL(2-2)), the A5 is on the 3.55pm to Derby (Twin BT(6)-T(8), CL(3-4), Twin(T8)-BT(6) and BY) and the C12 station pilot is waiting to move the stock into Platform 5 for the 4.05pm to Boston (TwinBT(6)-CL(2-5), TwinCL(2-5)-BT(6)). I think the engine for the Boston train is either the B12(?) sitting at the front of the Loco exit (in front of what looks like an Apple Green A1) or the J6 sitting in the Down Goods line. Looking at the Carriage working Notice it states that on Wednesdays/Saturdays Excepted it had a 4w Parcels van on the back. So the fact that April 19 1950 was a Wednesday confirms the train I think! Note the second Twin must have been recently outshopped in new Teak Paint!

A J52 appears to be the Down Goods pilot.

I've been trying to identify the light engine moving along the Up Main, presumably to take over a KX express, but not sure whether it is an A3 or V2.

Working on the 1956/57 timetable its interesting to note the additional coaching stock necessary for the Lincoln/Boston trains, many of the rakes being stored in the carriage sidings adjacent to the exit from the Loco.

Ian
This is wonderful stuff – these photos have captured a moment in time which we can now almost step back into. Fascinating how it all slots into place, even to it being a Wednesday and all!

Folk might be interested in how time of day these photos were taken has been estimated, a necessary preliminary to identifying the trains from the timetable of the day. It's basically done by combining info from Google Earth and the photo and plugging that into a solar position calculator on the web, though the process appears at first sight to be a bit complex.

To start with, in the photo the sun has to be shining, so you can clearly see a shadow cast by a vertical pole or edge (e.g. a signal post, or a corner of a building). The date and the location of the picture need to be known too. It also helps if the principal features of the location are 'findable' today (failing this, a historic map could be used in place of Google Earth).

1. On Google Earth (or the old map) go to the location where the photo was taken and, using the ruler tool, create a line parallel, as near as you can judge, to the shadow of the verical object in the photograph. This will be the direction around the horizon (from zero at 'north') that the sun is shining from, known as 'solar azimuth'. You can read off this angle from the ruler tool. Also note down the latitude and longitude of the location, which appear at the bottom right of the screen.

2. Then go to this site: http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/grad/solcalc/azel.html . It calculates the position of the sun in the sky at any date and time for all locations on earth. So you enter the latitude and longitude of the photo's location (which you got from Goole Earth), enter 0 in 'offset' if the photo was taken in the UK, enter the date of the photo, and enter a guesstimate of the time. Change your time guess until the 'solar azimuth' correlates with the angle of the shadow - when it does, that's the GMT time of day when the photo was taken. Probably good to +/- 20 minutes or better, depending on how accurately you're able to measure the angle of the shadow.

3. Adjust the time for BST if necessary - use website http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.co.uk/info/bst2.htm for historical data.
Iron Duke
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Iron Duke »

Ref my thread "C1 at Grantham"
I am currently researching the changing use of station buildings over different periods as part of the www.returntograntham.wordpress.com project.

To the right of the photograph showing 3279 at Grantham can be seen some type of screen on the platform.
I have a fairly early plan of the station and in this area a Gents Toilet is indicated.
Can anyone throw any light on this or say when it was removed, is the screen in the picture part of this?
In later plans this has disappeared so maybe it was swept away when the roof collapsed?
Any help would be most appreciated.

ID
JASd17
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by JASd17 »

61070.

I have had a great time mucking about with your tables for the heavenly bodies.

One can extrapolate and interpolate for a good while.

I guessitmated the angle for the 4442 picture and the date as 01-08-1939, this produced about 17.19 as the result.

That is within the excursion range, without knowing the exact date, beforehand.

Good fun, but I think an exact date is more of a help than anything else. Closely followed by an exact angle of shadow, although a plus/minus 7 degrees will not matter with the latter, that equates to 2% or so either way on the estimated angle, I think. That also depends on the equation of time, calculated by the site.

Another tool well worth using in certain cases.

Again, ref to C1 at Grantham thread.

John
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61070
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 61070 »

John - I'm really glad to hear that you've taken the trouble to work this through. I was a bit concerned that it was a mathematical step too far. As you say, the accuracy depends on how well you can measure (or estimate) the angle of the sun because, as ever, the accuracy of what comes out is entirely dependant on the reliability of the data going in.

In an aerial photo, with its near-vertical viewpoint, it may be possible to be accurate to a couple of degrees (depending on the clarity of the picture), which is +/- 8 minutes; +/- 5 degrees is +/- 20 minutes. From a ground level viewpoint the angle of view affects how horizontal angles appear so they can't be measured direct; either careful estimating or three-dimensional calculation needs to be resorted to (and I'm not confident about my ability with the latter these days!).

In one photo I have, where I knew the time (there was a clock in the shot!) but not the date, I was able to work out the date by adapting the same method, measuring the vertical angle of the sun at that time as defined by a shadow (as the angle changes with season at a given time of day, most rapidly in spring and autumn). Because we only went to Grantham on Thursdays the change of vertical angle over a week during the autumn is sufficient to determine one week from the next.

A useful tool in the box but, at best, only as accurate as a sundial, not a chronometer.
Iron Duke
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Iron Duke »

While sorting through a few loose scrapbook clippings I came across this picture.
No information on source or photographer available, but as it's obviously at Grantham I have stored it amongst my "Grantham collection" of notes, plans & pics for future research.

Does anyone know what the vehicle is behind the tender, if so was this a regular configuration?
If I come across anymore "unknowns" I will post on here, you all usually come up with the right answers !

ID
www.returntograntham.wordpress.co.uk
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4494 Osprey.jpg
Iron Duke
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Location: Twixt Grantham & Lincoln

Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by Iron Duke »

Further to the previous post showing 4494 entering Grantham from the south.

My research is focussed on any railway information relating to all things "Grantham"
An intended quick five minutes sifting through old scrapbooks put together years ago, soon turns into a few hours !
The lawnmower remains on shed, oh dear, it's started to rain, must sort through a few more. :)

If you have any unusual mystery pictures of this area please let me know via http://www.returntograntham.wordpress.com
Sorry about my error in the last link should read .com not .co.uk :oops:

ID
jwealleans
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by jwealleans »

The vehicle behind the tender is a gas tank, used for replenishing gas lighting and cooking tanks in carriages. There is one of this triple type illustrated in the single volume LNER Wagons, if I recall correctly. They were often built on redundant underframes and I'm guessing this one has been a carriage in a former life as it would have to be vac braked to be in that position on a passenger train.

Edit - spelling.
Last edited by jwealleans on Tue May 20, 2014 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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52D
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by 52D »

Your sharp JW I was about to quote just what you said about the tanks.
Hi interested in the area served by 52D. also researching colliery wagonways from same area.
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manna
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by manna »

G'Day Gents

I would hazard a guess that Osprey is in green, and is that a 'train nameboard' on the bufferbeam, can it be read or is it on backwards :?

manna
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jwealleans
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Re: Returning to Grantham

Post by jwealleans »

It's on backwards. Probably a return working after a named train. I ought to know what the Grantham A4s mainly did, but OTTOMH I can't remember.
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